Whats wrong with DIR

[MikeFerrara]

MHK once bubbled...




As far as I know I believe Wakulla and perhaps Sally Ward, but Chickdiver can say more certain then I could.. You ask why?? Because the WKPP is working with NSS and the state of Florida for important research projects. For example last weekend, in a joint effort with the NSS, they put in flow meter's and several other environmental tools to help gather information about the protection and preservation of the environment. Many of these projects involve time consuming set up's that require stage bottles, scooters and a whole host of other support tools be precisely placed at very strategic points days, if not weeks, in advance. Divers lives depend on those bottles and/or scooters being in precise places. Unlimited access to those projects creates an unacceptable safety risk that an unknowing diver could move, steal or otherwise remove a life saving piece of equipment..

After thinking about it I decided to comment on this. Lots of us do cave dives that require advance set up. Sometimes on the way into the cave and sometimes on a previous dive. If some one tampered with out equipment the result would be the same for us as it would be for the WKPP.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a cave diver who didn't know better than to mess with another divers staged equipment. I also think you would be hard pressed to find a cave diver who would do it because they know it could cost another diver their life.

Also, we don't plan things such that our live depend on any single bottle so a bunch of stuff would need to be tampered with to do more than make us real mad.

We have had shallow bottled left in the basin messd with by free divers and OW divers but I've never had anything touched by a cave diver.

I don't at all see this as a valid reason to have the sites closed. It would, IMO, be reasonable to close to the public during big dives just to keep things as simple as possible by limiting traffic. Although if I want to do a big dive in Cannonball I just have to work around any one else who wants to dive there at the same time.

I have also heard the argument (not from MHK) that divers would drop like flies if they were let in there. I don't buy that either. We have a deeper way colder cave in Missouri. We dive it. We're not dropping like flies and we don't need any one to protect us.

There may be sites that should be closed for conservation purposes, I don't know, but I would like to be able to dive all the others. Wouldn't you?

 

[Aquamaniac]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...


(oh, and you don't think if I started working toward my own permission and got too close for comfort the WKPP would step in and "suggest" I get turned down?)

More than likely, but they would only be doing that to protect the gear they have in there.
Secondly, it would be the government that YOU elected that would make the decision, not the WKPP.
We keep "blaming" the WKPP for the situation, but not once has someone taken a shot at the government depts that closed the caves, or gave permission to the WKPP.
If you dont like the setup, become pro-active, do something about it. Hey why dont you start up a website called www.caveaccessunion.com

 

[OneBrightGator]

Aquamaniac once bubbled...
More than likely, but they would only be doing that to protect the gear they have in there.
Secondly, it would be the government that YOU elected that would make the decision, not the WKPP.
We keep "blaming" the WKPP for the situation, but not once has someone taken a shot at the government depts that closed the caves, or gave permission to the WKPP.
If you dont like the setup, become pro-active, do something about it. Hey why dont you start up a website called www.caveaccessunion.com

Look... I'm not knocking the WKPP, they do thier own thing, that's great, what I am knocking is this deity complex some people have with the WKPP. The vast majority of divers have not or have barely benefited from thier existence, where the majority of divers are certified through the NACD or the NSS-CDS and have dove at sites that are open because of thier involvement.

And I am pro-active, I'm a member of the NACD.

Ben

 

[Aquamaniac]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...

Look... I'm not knocking the WKPP, they do thier own thing, that's great, what I am knocking is this deity complex some people have with the WKPP. The vast majority of divers have not or have barely benefited from thier existence, where the majority of divers are certified through the NACD or the NSS-CDS and have dove at sites that are open because of thier involvement.

And I am pro-active, I'm a member of the NACD.

Ben

Yeah, but they both have entirely differant agendas. What does WKPP stand for? What does NSS stand for what does NACD The answer is RIGHT THERE!!!

Key words.....
National and Woodsville

Dave

 

[OneBrightGator]

Aquamaniac once bubbled...
Yeah, but they both have entirely differant agendas. What does WKPP stand for? What does NSS stand for what does NACD The answer is RIGHT THERE!!!

Key words.....
National and Woodsville

Give me a break... as if thier agendas only differ in the areas they are interested in... if the WKPP was the NKPP a lot of us wouldn't be cave divers.

Ben

 

[MikeFerrara]

Aquamaniac once bubbled...


More than likely, but they would only be doing that to protect the gear they have in there.

As I stated above I don't buy that at all. The politics surrounding the WKP has always been thick. Actually it is with all the other sites too.

I don't know if it's worse in cave diving than other things but it sure seems like it. Every little group seems to want to run themselves up and every one else down. Most of it is total bs that has nothing to do with anything other than groups and individuals pushing their own agendas.

 

[O-ring]

What kinds of deco theory research has the NSS done? I know from talking with Bruce Wienke that a lot of his data for developing RGBM came from WKPP profiles. I also know that Gene Hobbs (Duke Hyperbaric) is often seen traveling around with members of the WKPP gathering data to help all of us to understand decompression better.

So the NSS keeps some sites open? Hmm...

 

[Aquamaniac]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...


Give me a break... as if thier agendas only differ in the areas they are interested in... if the WKPP was the NKPP a lot of us wouldn't be cave divers.

Ben

OK, so you missed that one.....

How about the fact that one is an association, and one is a project based on a specific Karst plain

 

[Aquamaniac]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


As I stated above I don't buy that at all. The politics surrounding the WKP has always been thick. Actually it is with all the other sites too.

I don't know if it's worse in cave diving than other things but it sure seems like it. Every little group seems to want to run themselves up and every one else down. Most of it is total bs that has nothing to do with anything other than groups and individuals pushing their own agendas.

Possibly Mike, but what I was getting at, right or wrong, for better or worse, The final say is not made by the WKPP. Like 'em or hate 'em, they got access to places that others couldnt, and the elected officials gave them those rights. If your pissed at the situation, take it up with the officials, not the WKPP.
If the exploration is a mask for personal agendas, good luck to them, at least they put the work in so that they COULD hold onto the end of the line. They did the legwork, filled in the forms, lobbied the right people, and got the rights. Am I pissed I cant dive Wakulla...Hell yes. Who do I blame? Certainly wont be WKPP, if anything, perhaps I should be pissed at NSS/CDS for not getting me access as a paying member!.

 

[MikeFerrara]

O-ring once bubbled...
What kinds of deco theory research has the NSS done? I know from talking with Bruce Wienke that a lot of his data for developing RGBM came from WKPP profiles. I also know that Gene Hobbs (Duke Hyperbaric) is often seen traveling around with members of the WKPP gathering data to help all of us to understand decompression better.

So the NSS keeps some sites open? Hmm...

To be honest o-ring I don't know what the WKPP has done either. BRW is in business and I guess he got some data from the WKPP. ok? so I guess it's for sale?

I haven't seen anything decompression related come out of Duke or DAN except this lame flying after diving stuff. I don't have a plane so who cares. I get to Florida in a Chevy.

Oh, they did recently write that they think deep stops are a good idea. Now there's a revelation for ya!

Me, I'm still waiting to see what they do to help all of us.

the NSS does exactly what I want them to do for me with my money. Who gives a crap about decompression if there's no place to get compressed at . LOL

Also, there are NSS projects going on all over the place and...they publish the data. Many NSS members have made huge contributions to diving, science and cave preservation.

At one time the WKPP was an NSS project (I don't know if it still is). I do know that if you look back through old reports you'll see where the project was reconsidered due to all the infighting in the community. Basically it said that NSS members were against funding the project because of incedents that were occuring at dive sites.

If you look at some of what we've seen written recently, some of the founders of the WKPP don't seem pleased with the fact that the project broke from the CDS. That doesn't really mean anything other than it didn't turn out the way they had intended.

I don't know who's fault it is or who did what to who but the whole thing is one big black eye for the cave diving community. IMO, the whole thing is pathetic. There aren't many cave divers and if we want accesss to sites we'll need to stick together. As individual little groups there's no clout at all. That's why some of the stuff GI has said about cave divers gets to me so much. We don't need land owners getting wind of some of that junk and we sure don't need them believing it.