Whats wrong with DIR

[Aquamaniac]

Genesis once bubbled...


They have actually worked to keep existing closed sites closed (Wakulla, for example.)

GI has ranted so often about closing sites to anyone who doesn't dive "his way" that it is only reasonable to expect that such rants have been aired in more places than on Quest.

You only need one documentable case to prove the claim - which we have, right in everyone's face.

Well, Unless Im mistaken, Mr Irvine is not a member of any Fl gov agencies, thereby has no say in the decision to open/close a cave. Yeah he rants an raves like a blithering idiot, so what. That has nothing to do with GUE, and the impact that GUE has on the status of caves.
Once AGAIN, show me something that PROVES GUE was involved in ANY of the FL gov decisions on opening/closing caves?

 

[Spectre]

Genesis once bubbled...
They have actually worked to keep existing closed sites closed (Wakulla, for example.)

Ok.. I'm confused. Aquamanic asked for evidence that GUE has closed access to previously opened caves.

But here you bring up wakulla.

And previously you've said:

We have one org that does nothing for its "members" access to caves to dive,

Now if you're talking about Wakulla, then that means you're actually referring to the WKPP. In which case your argument is completely flawed, because it's my understanding that WKPP has done wonderful things to get access to the WKP for their members.

And this all applies to "What's wrong with DIR" how?

 

[Genesis]

Well, Unless Im mistaken, Mr Irvine is not a member of any Fl gov agencies, thereby has no say in the decision to open/close a cave.

Irrelavent.

ANY discussion that he had with ANY government agency or representative of an agency on a subject matter regarding any regulation, business arrangement or any other matter that impacts on the operation of government and its implementation must, under Florida law, have been held "in the sunshine" or the discussion is a per-se violation of that law. "In the sunshine" means that the meeting/discussion must have been held after proper notice to the public, and in public, where interested members of the public can observe the meeting. ALL substantive governmental issues must follow this procedure, with very few and very limited exceptions.

GUE has by their own statements PROVEN my point, in that they have put forward AND BEEN GRANTED exclusive access to Wakulla only for their project members and NOT the membership of GUE generally, and they did so (and continue to do so) using money that their members gave them, without their members receiving ANY benefit from said donations.

In fact, King George and his merry men have managed to fund GUE's "exploration" on the backs of those very same members, who have enjoyed no benefit from their contributions. Contrary to the claim that this grant was done for "research" purposes, King George himself, along with others, have described many "for fun or exploration" (or even worse, for personal aggrandizement vis-a-vis "holding the end of the line") dives they have done at Wakulla - with no "scientific" purpose whatsoever.

Again, contrast this with NSS/CDS and NACD which have both taken THEIR membership dues from their members and used them to ACTUALLY BENEFIT THEIR MEMBERSHIP through purchasing land and negotiating access to cave systems.

Now if you are actually a cave diver (rather than someone who just likes to fund other projects) why would you belong to GUE, when you can actually pay membership dues to an organization that will advance your access to sites that can be used for your personal diving?

 

[Aquamaniac]

Genesis once bubbled...


In fact, King George and his merry men have managed to fund GUE's "exploration" on the backs of those very same members, who have enjoyed no benefit from their contributions.

[/B]

Damned right its irrelevant!

At what point did GUE become the agency doing exploration at Wakulla?

 

[Aquamaniac]

More importantly, lets not drift too far here.

You still cant show where GUE made efforts to keep caves closed.

Perhaps they didnt Support the re-opening of Wakulla, but you cant blame them for that, some of their members are members of the WKPP, so it would be downright dangerous and foolish to open Wakulla, and let the masses attack the Caches, and scientific equip at will.

The WKPP got access because they worked bloody hard at it.
As a side note, do you REALLY think GUE members, that work on the project would all be there on project days if they felt they were getting NOTHING out of it?

 

[MikeFerrara]

mgri once bubbled...


Ben, that seems to be the deference between you and the WKPP. You just want to play. You are a young kid, nothing wrong with wanting to play but they are interested in doing actually research. I'm sure that the biggest driving factor for these guys and gals to get access initially was for the sake of exploration in the guise of scientific research but even if today they are still mainly focused on exploring they are and have done a lot of scientific research in regards to karsts systems. To them it is not about playing.

I don't think all the divers are in it for just good cave diving. I'm sure some (maybe chick diver can attests to this) of the divers are scientist first.

But what do I know maybe they are just cave diving N@zis that want it all to themselves.

Hmmm, not really. Cave divers like to dive in caves. We really like to dive in new cave. When we do, we lay line and map the cave. Much of the "research" that goes on in caves is associated with just finding out where it goes, hence, helping trace the path of the water. In this regard, every cave diver on the face of the planet is going to do research if he gets into unexplored cave.

Luckily for us, most scientists aren't cave divers. That means that when they want samples of cave life they get it from cave divers.

Most cave divers (hopefully all) also have a keen interest in cave preservation so they are happy to do what they can. Some even become prety knowledgeable on matters of geology, hydrology and cave biology. Some take an interest in photography which is also useful. However most cave divers are not scientists and that applies to WKPP members also.

My point is that while I believe that WKPP members being good cave divers who are concerned with the environment they like to dive, I also believe that most are there because they think it's fun to dive the WKP. The State would have NO trouble finding volonteers to do some of what the WKPP does. I say some because not every one wants to do 20 hour dives. I sure would jump at the chance to go in a ways to read a flow meter though.

We do this for fun. The fact that some of the products of what we do has scientific value is a bonus.

It's play.

 

[OneBrightGator]

Spectre once bubbled...
Now if you're talking about Wakulla, then that means you're actually referring to the WKPP. In which case your argument is completely flawed, because it's my understanding that WKPP has done wonderful things to get access to the WKP for their members.

Sorry Jeff, you and I have drastically different of wonderful. As a member of the NSS-CDS you could probably go dive at Cow Springs tomorrow. In fact, here's the exact details of how to dive at any of the CDS-owned sites:

http://www.nsscds.com/Divesites.htm

Care to tell me how a WKPP member can dive at any of the WKPP controlled sites? I certainly don't know, but I highly suspect it's nowhere near as easy. Oh, and the WKPP only has control, which the state could take away at anytime.

Compare the number of divers who've dove at CDS sites to the number of divers who've dove at WKPP sites and we'll see who has wonderful access.

Ben

 

[Aquamaniac]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...


Sorry Jeff, you and I have drastically different of wonderful. As a member of the NSS-CDS you could probably go dive at Cow Springs tomorrow. In fact, here's the exact details of how to dive at any of the CDS-owned sites:

http://www.nsscds.com/Divesites.htm

Care to tell me how a WKPP member can dive at any of the WKPP controlled sites? I certainly don't know, but I highly suspect it's nowhere near as easy. Oh, and the WKPP only has control, which the state could take away at anytime.

Compare the number of dives who've dove at CDS sites to the number of divers who've dove at WKPP sites and we'll see who has wonderful access.

Ben

For Gods Sake Ben, you havent listened to a bloody thing!!!!

The WKPP does not CONTROL Wakulla, they are just allowed to use it, as was the United States Deep Caving Team.

Why dont you guys get it? What is so hard to understand?

IF NSS/CDS does the legwork, and the FL depts agree, they can use it too, WITHOUT consent from the WKPP or GUE.

Dave

 

[Big-t-2538]

M & M s have a thick candy shell....I wonder if anyone else has this think candy shell?

 

[OneBrightGator]

Aquamaniac once bubbled...
For Gods Sake Ben, you havent listened to a bloody thing!!!!

The WKPP does not CONTROL Wakulla, they are just allowed to use it, as was the United States Deep Caving Team.

Why dont you guys get it? What is so hard to understand?

IF NSS/CDS does the legwork, and the FL depts agree, they can use it too, WITHOUT consent from the WKPP or GUE.

Hmmm... I see... so they don't even have control, just permission.

Ah, got it, sounds like wonderful access to me.

Ben

(oh, and you don't think if I started working toward my own permission and got too close for comfort the WKPP would step in and "suggest" I get turned down?)