So confused with Jacket BC's & BP/W's!!!

[9supratt4]

I am a new diver, just getting certified and I was looking at purchasing my own equipment. After asking a question about 2 BC's that I had liked, I was told to look into Backplate & Wing setups. After searching and reading tons of posts on here and doing more research though google, I am completely confused!!

Can someone point me to a website or a thread that simply explains the pros and cons of both of these??

 

[Steve02]

I ran a quick search and found this thread from before. You'll have to read through some non-sense, but I think it has what you are looking for.

Good luck.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...ring-diving/197713-bp-w-whats-so-special.html

 

[NorthWoodsDiver]

It can be a daunting task to decide on which type of buoyancy system to pick. you have really 4 primary options in modern equipment:\

-Jacket BCD
-Back Inflation BCD
-Backplate and wing system
-sidemount tank configurations

For the majority of divers out there they will train initially in a jacket style bcd, the reasons vary but in the end this tends to be the most common form of buoyancy compensator out RIGHT NOW.

Most divers are not going to learn to dive in a sidemount configuration, there is additional task management and some specialized techniques related to this form of diving which puts it outside the realm of introductory diving. Exceptions are out there though.

Back inflation BCD's are usually a soft pack or a plastic pack design with an integrated harness and the bladder which controls buoyancy doesn't wrap around the divers mid section like a jacket style. These are also very common and the scubapro knighthawk is a classic example of this design.

A backplate and wing is a MODULAR system where the diver can tailer the system to their specific needs and diving conditions. It can be broken down for travel, adapted to more advanced equipment like rebreathers, and will grow/change with the divers needs and experience.

So to break down a BP/W a bit more you need to understand exactly what the system is made of.

-a harness of some sort, this can be as simple as a continuous piece of 2 inch webbing with some stainless hardware or as complex as a manufactured harness with padding in the shoulders and a integrated weight system. More advanced divers generally prefer the 1 piece design for reliability and simplicity.

-a metal plate, though also available in plastic through some companies, is usually composed of aluminum or stainless steel. This is the foundation for the bp/w system and is the only component that remains constant throughout the divers career.

-a buoyancy compensator or wing, these are picked based on the individuals needs. If you dive heavy steel tanks then you will need a bit bigger wing and if you dive lighter tanks or travel then a smaller wing is all you generally need. Usually as a diver progresses he/she can pick a different wing when they move to diving double cylinders though this is not always the case.

-a single tank adapter is used on almost every brand of BP/W system (except DSS I think) and is what rigidly mounts the tank to the backplate. If the diver is diving double tanks then this component is omitted.

thats the components, its very simple once you figure out whats going on.

the layers would go: Diver, metal plate, wing, single tank adapter, tank. in that order almost exclusively.

A bp/w will change with a diver, if you gain 20lbs and dive a hogarthian harness then all you may need is to invest in $20 worth of webbing or if you drop 20lbs you need only trim off some webbing. If you transition to diving doubles then you may need only buy a larger capacity wing though this is not always the case. if you end up doing alot of traveling and diving a thin suit in warm water you may elect to buy a wing with lesser capacity.

You can buy a prepackaged BP/W but this is not always the best option, no matter what though every brand uses 11" hole centers so all wings and plates should be compatible.

There is a growing trend in favor of the BP/W and because of this they tend to hold their value well on the used dive gear market unlike most jacket bcd's.

People argue back and forth about a BP/W being advantageous to helping a diver achieve better trim and buoyancy skills.

A bp/w system tends to be a very solid foundation for the attachment of accessory equipment including: underwater DPV's (scooters), large lighting systems, offboard gas supplies like stage bottles and decompression gas, reels or safety equipment, various pockets, and even weighting.

a multitude of companies manufacture bp/w components including but not limited to:

Deep Sea Supply
Ocean Management Systems
Dive Rite
Halcyon
Salvo
Oxycheq
Zeagle
FredT (scuba board member, great products)
Hammerhead
Golem Gear
HOG/EDGE
etc...

the only constant between the companies is the universal bolt spacing, nothing else really matters beyond personal preference, as all those companies make great products.

To build a backplate and wing system from scratch and utilize the hogarthian configuration you need only these components:

-1 backplate of your material choice
-1 wing of your choice (this will be the hardest thing for you to pick I bet even though it should be simple)
-1 single tank adapter
-2 tank straps (cam or buckle)
-15 feet or so of 2 inch webbing
-5 or more D-rings depending on your desires
-2 more belt slides then the number of D-rings
-a few inches of bicycle inner tubing or some bungee cord

thats it, though you can add a variety of pockets in any orientation or location or even add weight integration if you so desire.

Padding is available but thats another point of argument, its based on your needs and desires but as a rule I urge people to try diving without it first.

The internet has a vast library on this subject and twice that number in opinions about the subject but here is some links that may be of assistance to you:

This site sells dive rite gear but they do a wonderful job of laying out all the components:
Hogarthian System

This is a DIR/GUE link with lots of good information about setting up a diving sytem:
Equipment Configuration | Global Underwater Explorers

This is a link about fitting your backplate and harness:
SDUA Fitting Your Back Plate and Harness

and another:
Fitting the Backplate and Secure Harness | Halcyon Dive Systems

and another:
DIR-diver.com - Adjust the backplate

here is a video of threading a harness:
Scuba Diving Videos Assembling (Threading) a Back Plate Scuba Videos

and of course google should turn up plenty of results if you type in the manufactures I listed above.

Dont be turned off by a website's quality, some of the better quality products come from the companies with the not-so-up-to-date websites. there is a good excuse for this, they are out diving and testing and designing products not building a website. None of the companies listed make inferior products.

There are a few different designs out there and I would say Tobin from Deep Sea Supply has the most unique design, his plates do not require a single tank adapter and have special anti wear spots where the webbing is attached. his plates and wings still work with the other manufactures components also. He provides answers to questions about wing/buoyancy options/issues on here all the time.

if you are looking to actually drop some cash on a system there are several great shops and many online shops who have representatives on this website. I would urge you to call them if you have questions:

-Mike at Dive Right In Scuba
-John at Northeast Scuba Supply
-Edd at Cave Adventurers
-Tobin at Deep Sea Supply
-The guys at Salvo/Salvo Supply
-Larry or Joe at Scubatoys
-Brett at Leisurepro
or any other one you want.
You will generally get faster answers that way and great deals too.

hopefully that helps you. T

 

[rstofer]

There are 3 types of BCs in common use today: jacket style BC, rear-inflate BC and BP/W.

The jacket style BC has the bladder wrapping around your body to include flotation at your sides and shoulders. It will float you straight up in the water even when overinflated. These BCs are commonly used for OW classes because new divers are more comfortable. The may, or may not, have integrated weight pockets and will usually have general purpose pockets. The general purpose pockets are actually useful in BC w/o weight integration.

Rear-inflate BCs have a harness system with side pockets and a lot of fluff all to support a bladder that is entirely behind the diver. These BCs often have a lot of lift and when over-inflated, will tend to push a diver face forward. These will trim better when the diver is horizontal in that they are a lot like the BP/W in terms of where the flotation is located. These BCs commonly have integrated weight systems. The pockets are commonly quite small.

BP/Ws throw out all of the fluff. You have a backplate of metal or plastic that is held to the diver by a fairly minimal harness (more fully featured harnesses are available). The wing (bladder) is mounted to the outside of the plate and is sandwiched between the plate and the tank. Again, all lift is behind the diver. Everything is extra on a BP/W. If you want pockets, you have to add them. Considering how little there is to a BP/W, it's surprising they cost as much as a fully featured BC.

The compelling feature of the BP/W is its ease of modification. Doing cold water diving? Great, use a stainless steel backplate. Going on a trip to warm water? Great, maybe you can use the same wing with a plastic plate. Making the move to doubles? Just change the wing, keep the plate and harness.

I just bought BP/Ws for myself, my wife and my son-in-law. For my grandson, I bought a rear-inflate BC. I did this because within a couple of years he will outgrow the BC and be big enough that I only need to buy the Large backplate. Stainless steel backplates are expensive!

My choice? I like the Deep Sea Supply BP/W with the ProFit harness. The standard HOG harness is quite a bit cheaper. More important is the customer service.

Go to your LDS and have them show you the 3 varieties. Most shops will have at least a minimal BP/W even though they will have a lot more jacket and rear-inflate BCs. The LDS can't get the 100% markup on BP/Ws so they may not stock any.

BP/W users are overpopulated on SB. When I walk up and down the beach, BP/Ws are not the predominate setup. Still, I think the clean rig and reduced drag are the way to go.

Richard

 

[toddr]

The post by NorthWoodsDiver is great. It has the major pros/cons.

I think one of the main decision that you will need to ask yourself is what type of diving will you be doing? What additional equipment are you looking at carrying?

This is my personal opinion and only that. I started out with a Zeagle Ranger (Back Inflation BCD). I just don't like the jacket style for personal preferences. Within the past year, I've acquired a bp/w w/double 108s. If I were to do it over, I would have purchased the bp/w first. I like the flexibility it provides. I have two wings that I can change between depending on whether I'm diving dry or wet.

I'm getting into tech diving which is the main reason why I purchased the BP/W. The only two things you will have to get use to is not having the additional padding and the absence of integrated weights; although with doubles and multiple tanks, you don't necessarily need it! You can also purchase weight pouches.

And if you are wondering, I still dive with my Ranger about 1/3 of the time...when I don't need my doubles.

My 2 cents are if you are planning to advance in your diving skills, consider a bp/w. but if you are just a recreational diving doing only a few dives a year, go with a integrated jacked or back-inflate BC.

 

[Stu S.]

All modern BC's work as back inflate. When observing divers using the various BC types, you see a little "ball" of air at the top rear of the BC when a diver is swimming horizontally. Unless the BC is filled, which we typically do only on the surface, all will give good results if you know how to use one.

How you float on the surface is the difference that most divers experience. Is one better? Probably not. My group uses all of the BC types, and we all go the same places and make the same dives.

I gotta add one thing. Consider a BC with two tank straps. The probability of one failing is small. I had one fail and it was quite a task to get back in the boat. (Now I have two!)

Have fun with it.

 

[Jorgy]

I'm with toddr on this........

If you are planning to go tech, drysuit, deep, caves or other advanced diving.......such as NJ deeper wreck diving........go BP/W........

OTOH if you are like my darling bride - warm water recreational diving only........then a BCD is fine.........

She has almost 200 dives in the past 5 years on a TUSA BCJ-2900, I think it has now been replaced by the BCJ-2100, works great, packs small and allows her to have great dives.

LP has it the BCJ-2100 for $130..............

Full disclosure here, she used a weight integrated rental BCD recently in Maui and she liked it, so maybe she will get a new weight integrated one soon...........

Hope this helps...................M

 

[NorthWoodsDiver]

I forgot to add that you dont have to be a "tech" diver or a "cave" diver or a "wreck" diver to enjoy the use of a backplate and wing.

Its not for everyone, as everyone likes something different but i will say, that with the exception of sidemount diving, a backplate and wing can be configured to meet every divers specific needs and be used in virtually every diving environment in the world.

depending on which brands you look at (just like anything else) you can spend alot of money or a fairly small sum of money. Going used will also save you big bucks.

A stainless steel plate its pretty tough, there isn't much that normal diving is going to do to hurt it and it has the added feature of removing 6lbs from your weight belt. For these reasons plus materials cost and production cost they tend to be on the more expensive side however I have seen SS plates onsale lately on some of the online shops for around $100 new and generally $80-100 used.

So a plate ($80-150) plus a wing ($180-350) plus a harness ($40) plus a single tank adapter ($40-100) and your set. Total cost I would say your looking at between $350 and $800 depending on brand of course. A used rig or a rig composed of some used components will be on the lower price end and a brand spankin new halcyon rig is going to be on the high end.

Dont let cost be the deciding factor here, you need to look long term. If you are not sure of your diving future at least a bp/w can grow with you or in worst case and you stop diving then it has a better resale value.

 

[9supratt4]

WOW!! What great information from all of you!! Thanks so much.

I guess I should also add that being from NJ, I am looking at doing a lot of dives there to the wrecks. So it would be cold water and some of the wrecks are pretty deep, one in particular I want to go to is 115'. So what do I need to look for in diving these cold water of NJ?

 

[NorthWoodsDiver]

WOW!! What great information from all of you!! Thanks so much.

I guess I should also add that being from NJ, I am looking at doing a lot of dives there to the wrecks. So it would be cold water and some of the wrecks are pretty deep, one in particular I want to go to is 115'. So what do I need to look for in diving these cold water of NJ?

If your in cold water plan on going with a drysuit if at all possible, I wish that had been my first piece of gear...

if 115ft is all the deeper you planning to dive you may not need dual tanks or trimix though thats another argument for another forum.

But if wreck diving is something your serious about getting involved with already I doubt you will be satisfied with that single 115' wreck in NJ. That area is filled with great wrecks in every depth range.

For wreck penetration you are entering whats considered an overhead environment, much like a cave, and as such its highly recommended you dress properly for the job. That includes redundant tanks, proper lighting, etc which a bp/w is designed to handle.

But all that aside if your diving in cold water then that stainless plate is going to take 6lbs or more (if you have a single tank adapter or a thicker SS plate) off your belt. Thats the single best part about owning a plate for me, no weight belt or integrated weight system though you may need to add some in a pocket some plate or thread it onto a piece of the harness.

Tobin at DSS makes some weights that bolt right onto his SS plates which look very nice (though not too cheap) and would eliminate any need for additional ballast.

People here can give you a ton of advice but your best bet is going to be to go find some divers and ask, dive shops tend to be a good place to meet other divers. Check when they are having an event or weekly get together and ask if you can show up for some Q&A.

In NJ there will be no shortage of wreck divers and I'm sure you can find a few to let you examine their equipment. You wont get everything figured out immediately, most of us are still figuring stuff out on every dive, so dont get discouraged.