A Concerned Diver.

[Crush]

concernediver,

Here are my limited opinions, FWIW:

1. If you are a good cold water, low vis diver, then you are skilled. You will find the transition to warm water/high vis wonderful;
2. If someone pisses you off, don't dive with them - it will spoil your enjoyment of the dive;
3. It sounds like diver one is exceeding his limits of training, both in terms of depth and in terms of penetration. Let's hope that his stupidity doesn't catch up with him in a fatal way;
4. While people may think that their gear configuration is superior, I personally don't like to hear about why their setup is superior and why mine sucks. As long as the gear is appropriate to the environment, I am in favour of letting someone dive whatever floats their boat;
5. Learning tables is required, but I rarely ever use them. Someone is going to tear into me for this, but I believe that understanding the theory behind tables is a more important skill than being able to use tables (provided that you know how to use your computer) since nowadays computers are prolific. This is not to say that you shouldn't need to know how to use tables. However, computers are capable of calculating nitrogen loading in real time and are, in my opinion, superior to tables which assume a square profile.

 

[concernediver]

Thanks everybody for all of your responses. I am not trying to shame anybody, I just don't see logic in people sometimes.

I want to find a new buddy, but the thing is, convenience. If I don't dive with this group, it's going to be tough to dive at all as much of the planning and pricing is based on group rates.

As for the tables, it seems like tables are an afterthought to the dive. Aka, do the dive(s) then write out the log using the tables after.

With this whole group diving under one flag thing, I am going to make a trip to my local LDS and buy one for myself. Then I can break off from the pack and do my own thing with a buddy I can trust. I feel like the over mood of the dive is you need to stick together to have a good time, but in reality, you're diving to see underwater life, not other people. With that, time to break off from them.

 

[flots am]

Can somebody give me advice.

Sure. You can't fix anybody else, but you can change how you dive.

Get a well trained buddy that you trust, make sure you have whatever equipment you need, like flags, floats, etc., then go diving.

The best way to avoid a disaster is to not be there when it happens.

Flots

 

[ekremer]

I was just asking him why he wanted air2, for his opinion on it, and he gave me, it's more streamlined, good convo, bye.

I understand you should be connected, but literally I'd have to breath 4" from his face to use his octo.

hmm sounds like you should have asked what the air2 procedure is with an air2 the diver donates his primary from his mouth and then he breathes of the air2. the victim doesn't breath off of his air2

 

[GrandpaScuba]

...And like most typical people, he's the rely-on-the computer-what-tables-type of diver...

...yes, but they are again, screw the tables, rely on the computer types.

You seem to have a hang-up about people who use computers. You seem to imply that anyone using a computer should, somehow, be double checking everything the computer says against the tables.

This is incorrect. Comparing a computer to the tables is a useless gesture. The 2 methods use completely different paradigms. Tables are based on a square dive profile. Computers are a multilevel models capable of including information that the tables can't, such as: the computer can make adjustments according to your actual rate of ascent, not a theoretical rate.

You're not going to get the same answers from the tables and a computer. There's no good reason to compare them.

 

[Krenath]

hmm sounds like you should have asked what the air2 procedure is with an air2 the diver donates his primary from his mouth and then he breathes of the air2. the victim doesn't breath off of his air2

Huh. I had thought by his original description of the 'long hose/short backup setups,' that he understood how it works. I'd thought he was complaining that the long hose of the primary still wasn't long enough once it was donated to another diver.

ConcernedDiver: You're not intended to use the Air2 as the octo. If you run out of air, you get the reg that your buddy uses normally. HE gets the Air2 because of the short hose and you get the 'primary' because of the long hose. This way the setup only needs one long hose.

Panicky divers tend to grab for the reg in your mouth anyway.

You're not going to get the same answers from the tables and a computer. There's no good reason to compare them.

Correct. Tables assume that you jump in the water, instantly appear at the bottom, stick around at the bottom the whole time, then instantly appear on the surface when you're done.

Computers measure your actual depth and give you credit for being at depths shallower than the maximum depth of your dive. This can result in a much longer dive time because you're not absorbing nearly as much nitrogen as the tables force you to assume.

You might possibly get numbers close to what a computer gives you if you were to measure your depth once every 30 seconds and then compute the each 30 seconds as a separate 30-second dive with zero surface interval and then repeat for the entire duration of the dive. This would not be a fun dive.

 

[tkdgodess]

Why don't you just ask ONE person in the club to be your buddy on a specific dive, that way it doesn't matter if the whole group gets seperated. I dive in groups but always with a single buddy. (same group of people all the time, just different buddies depending on objective & gas) We might all swim out at the same time and be in the same general area, but that's it. I'm with MY buddy.

Group/Club fun can be on shore before/after.

I hate diving in big groups, 3 even sucks. It's not fun, I do it for training, but pleasure diving should be just that pleasure, no stress.

 

[Superlyte27]

Wow, so many things wrong with this post, I find it hard to decide where to start...

1. Suck it up buttercup and quit whining
2. Everyone moves along at their own pace.
3. What works for you, doesn't mean it's absolutely necessary for me.
4. If you can't understand 1,2,&3 find another dive group.

Holy Crap, way too much whining, way too much drama. This is supposed to be fun. If it's not that for you, quit and start collecting stamps or something.

 

[Crush]

Holy Crap, way too much whining, way too much drama. This is supposed to be fun. If it's not that for you, quit and start collecting stamps or something.

concernediver, you posted in "Basic Scuba Discussions" where the rules, clearly visible at the top of the page call for a very friendly, "flame free" attitude. I sometimes call "BS" in a harsh manner to SB posters that I know have been around a while and can dish it out, therefore should be able to take it. However, examining your OP:

Some background Info: I am a OW diver certified by PADI a few years ago with a few dozen dives,

you qualify as a new diver and a new poster. My personal opinion is that you should be given the benefit of the doubt. So, while I don't understand your insistence that someone should plan their dives with tables [edit after post: "(as opposed to planning a dive with a computer dive planner)"], I might be missing something and you are welcome to your opinion. You clearly have a strong sense of what is right and what is wrong, and you hold yourself to a high standard (which is admirable). You hold others to that same standard (which may not be realistic). Your gear configuration seems to be based on cave or DIR/GUE - I submit that you will find very high standards in those environments, and you will likely thrive in those two (non-mutually exclusive) circles.

 

[TSandM]

I'd be wiling to wager that, in the grand world of diving, the VAST majority of divers are running their decompression by their computers. I'm not even sure there is anything wrong with that -- but I do think people ought to understand something about what the computer is DOING and what the output from it means, in order to know how best to use the information. Tables are ridiculously limiting on many types of dives (eg. shore dives) unless you do a bunch of mental processing and keep your tables memorized. I don't think every diver, particularly those who don't dive often, need to do that or probably even can. It takes practice.

More important is safe gas management, and most people don't get taught that. Experienced divers will have a gut sense of what they can do with a given tank.

But nobody should have to dive in situations (mob dives) or with people they don't want to dive with. Your current problem is to find buddies who want to dive the way YOU do. You've got to be creative. If you sit there and say your current situation is the only diving available to you, then you either have to adapt to it or not dive. Otherwise, perhaps you can discuss your concerns with someone from the group who seems to be receptive, and see if you can agree to dive together under different parameters?