Jacket BCD vs. Backplate/Wing

[RJP]

However, yes they require a bit more balance/treading at the surface to remain upright. It's not a "training" issue or a myth it is pure fact...

That may be YOUR experience, but it is NOT a universal fact.

I have never needed "more balance/treading at the surface to remain upright" while using a BP/W on nearly 500 dives. Neither have any of the dozens and dozens of people that I dive with on a regular basis. Neither have any of the scores of people with whom I've conducted DSD's with while they were wearing BP/Ws.

In fact, the only time I HAVE seen this issue is when people overinflate their wings while at the surface, especially if they have a much larger wing than needed. It is a either a "skill" issue or a "training" issue or perhaps a "configuration" issue, but that does not make it a universal fact for everyone else who wears a BP/W.

 

[BoltSnap]

I don't care what others' opinions are. They are entitled to have them. Nor do I care whether people buy jacket BCs or leather jackets.

My point is that money for most of us is hard earned. The only advice that is worthwhile is one where you are told to use your brain to achieve your end results. Any advice that directs a new diver to buy something for now instead of thinking things through to get the right gear the first time around is plainly idiotic. And any instructor worth his or her salt would not give this kind of advice.

Wow, and now you are saying that every diver will, inevitably, need to be using a BP/W and it is "idiotic" not to buy one from the beginning. How presumptuous.

 

[CT Sean]

Wow, and now you are saying that every diver will, inevitably, need to be using a BP/W and it is "idiotic" not to buy one from the beginning. How presumptuous.

I don't think was the point at all, I think the message was simply plan for the future which is perfectly valid. The magazine article message is that one should buy gear equivalent to their experience level. That doesn't make sense. Why should one buy an "entry level reg" because they are an "entry level" diver.

It's actually a bit funny because the article does state that pretty specifically yet in another section touts the Atomic Cobalt as the greatest dive PC available. So the message being sent to the average diver is buy a "merely adequate" reg, stay away from a "tech" BC and buy one of the most expensive computers around - which "the average diver" will probably use barely 30% of its features.

 

[TSandM]

At least from looking around the Pacific Northwest, I'd say that an awful lot of cold water divers will eventually move to a backplate system. I got out of my car at a local dive site one day, and walked from one end of the parking lot to the other (to get to the restrooms). To my amazement, of all the gear set up in the backs of cars and trucks, almost ALL of it was backplates. (And no, this was not Cove 2, and this was NOT a Tweak or any other DIR diving thing. It was just totally random divers.) If you dive here, you rapidly figure out that one of the yuckiest parts of diving is the sheer amount of ballast you have to haul around, due to heavy exposure protection. When you learn that using a backplate usually means about three pounds less total ballast, and five or six pounds of it off your belt or out of your pockets, this becomes an extremely attractive thing. People who are actively diving run into folks using backplates and learn this, and change their gear. That's what happened to me, too. I'd just as soon not have bought the back-inflate BC I started with, because I sure didn't get what I paid for back when I sold it, but I'd never heard of a backplate, and in our shop, that's considered "tech s***"..

On the other hand, I use a little jacket BC that we bought in a group purchase when I'm DMing for the shop, and with minimal exposure protection and a small tank, the thing's fine. Of course, if I go head down, the first stage clonks me in the back of the head, and it's rather low on attachment points for clipping off gauges or regulators (or anything else), but otherwise, it's a perfectly usable BC.

I don't think everybody needs to dive a backplate, but I think everybody CAN, and my objection to the original article was that it implied that it took some kind of special experience or training to use one.

 

[BoltSnap]

Odds are of a diver needing to use the so called "advanced" features (whatever they are) of the computer are much higher than needing to use/buy the "techie" BC.

Again, its seems that some people are all bent out of shape just because their line of thinking or type of diving style is not considered mainstream by agencies and/or dive magazines.

Do you really think that this is a conspiracy by agencies, manufacturers, magazines, etc. to fleece divers and make them buy equipment twice?

I do believe that the SP Classic is the best, safest, most durable, most convenient and most versatile BC there is and that would be the BC I'd buy for my son as first choice provided it fits him. This would not get me all excited or start to fantasize about conspiracy theories or even think of insulting the integrity or knowledge of dive professionals around me. In addition, I would also consider using a BP/W if and when my needs or circumstance change requiring to use a BP/W. As we say in Arabic, "neither one will get us to Heaven or Hell faster than the other."

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

This Thread is so much fun to read.

My Instructor is one of the "pros" mentioned in another post and he is a damn good instructor, very through and very patient. He works with kids in in try scuba and JR certs. He is a big Zeagel,Atomic,Bare guy and loves his jacket back inflate BC. I will tell you it has more D-rings,zipper pockets,clips,pull straps, and whatnots on it. That is what he uses in class with his students and that is what he promotes. He does not dive a BP/W so WHY would he want to teach his kids in BP/W's?? That does not make him a sorry instructor or any other instructor sorry for that matter. They push what they use and it is up to the student to ask the right questions.

I have a Jacket BCD that I HATE so I got a BP/W if any of the students start asking about BP/W's I am sure he will send them to me because that is what I use and I promote.

Where I could see a lot of instructors pushing the Jackets over the BP/W's are where there tied to a shop and that shop dont sell BP/W. All shops are going to want to make the sale and they are not bad for pushing a product they have over one they dont. Its business.... It would be nice if most shops carried both but most don't so get over it.

It is up to new divers to do the research and ask questions about gear purchases before pulling the trigger. Get second and third opinions, ask on SB. If they dont they fall victim to dive shop hustle and bogas sales pitches.

 

[BoltSnap]

TSandM,

I dove in Massachusetts and the average divers there dive in wetsuits and jacket style BC's. Water temps there are probably at least as cold as it is where you are. I went diving last time I was there with my sons and a group from a local dive shop in the Boston area (around 20 or so divers) and no one was diving with BP/W. There were a couple diving with dry suits and they were using the Black Diamond (or the like). I went to another shop and I saw some BP/W setups in addition to regular/mainstream setups as well. I think that it is a regional thing depending on the prevalent "school of thought" in that region. Perhaps New Englanders are more traditional in their ways and this line of thinking is passed down even in diving, I don't know.

Most divers in general are taking up diving to head down to the tropics and would care less about diving locally (unfortunately). These folks are OK diving with JBCD's for the rest of their life and would not miss BP/W bc's at all. Some may chose back inflation but that is not BP/W.

I don't want to be defending dive rags, but they are probably thinking that JBCD's are more mainstream and that would be the more appropriate choice for the typical profile diver.

In regards to the JBCD you had and the tank hitting you in the head, perhaps you shouldn't have bought that type of a Jacket and perhaps a "woman's" BC would have fit you better, I don't know, but it isn't something to be used to infer that JBCD's are bad or inferior to BP/W. Perhaps it is something you believed in your mind just to justify the decision to buy a higher priced BP/W

 

[bkotheimer]

Jaycat:

I will never regret having bought a BP/W as my first and still only BC. However, yes they require a bit more balance/treading at the surface to remain upright. It's not a "training" issue or a myth - it is pure fact that a jacket just floats you like a PFD and a BP/W does not. But who cares? When you're underwater, they hold you in a much nicer position.

Setup out of the box, if you don't have your LDS do it for you, is like putting together a piece of Ikea furniture, wrapping a birthday present or lashing a surfboard to the top of a car. You just go step-by-step, one slot at a time, adding d-rings as you thread the webbing through the slots in the backplate. Tobin's instructions, as an example, are quite clear. It's not like you have to do this every time you go diving... just when you first put it together. Usually, I don't even readjust when I switch from my 7 mil to my 3/2 -- neoprene allows for a lot of wiggle room. The least I've ever worn with it is a rashguard, and it's still very comfortable.

On my first time out, I was lucky enough to have a fellow BP/W user help me with pieces of inner tube, bungee, etc. -- the little things -- and that was great. But you can get a lot of info right here on SB as well (as the length of this thread should demonstrate).

That may be YOUR experience, but it is NOT a universal fact.

I have never needed "more balance/treading at the surface to remain upright" while using a BP/W on nearly 500 dives. Neither have any of the dozens and dozens of people that I dive with on a regular basis. Neither have any of the scores of people with whom I've conducted DSD's with while they were wearing BP/Ws.

In fact, the only time I HAVE seen this issue is when people overinflate their wings while at the surface, especially if they have a much larger wing than needed. It is a either a "skill" issue or a "training" issue or perhaps a "configuration" issue, but that does not make it a universal fact for everyone else who wears a BP/W.

Okay, so I don't float around on the surface with my face in the water either, so I'll concede that it may be a training issue.

What I mean is that a jacket user can just inflate his BC at the surface with any random amount of air he wishes and float like he's wearing a Type I PFD whereas a BP/W wearer needs to be more precise with inflation so he doesn't overinflate and end up being pushed forward. So, yeah, training. There is a steeper learning curve with BP/W.

I'm just a happy BP/W user trying to be fair here. Mac users admit they wish certain apps were available to them; nobody that owns the Elise with the crank-down windows really appreciates two less failure points; and nothing floats you face-up in the water better than a jacket BC.

 

[TSandM]

In regards to the JBCD you had and the tank hitting you in the head, perhaps you shouldn't have bought that type of a Jacket and perhaps a "woman's" BC would have fit you better, I don't know, but it isn't something to be used to infer that JBCD's are bad or inferior to BP/W. Perhaps it is something you believed in your mind just to justify the decision to buy a higher priced BP/W

No, my original BC WAS a women's BC, a Libra, and it fit me as well as I or the shop owner could tell. But it never held the tank stable on my back. This one is a little women's BC of unknown make, and actually fits me really well. It just doesn't have any good way to keep the rig from sliding up my back when I stand on my head. It's not an issue; I don't use it for anything but pool work.

My first backplate and wing setup, complete, cost me 2/3s of what my Libra/Air 2 cost me. In fact, a brand new singles setup from DSS nowadays costs less than what my Libra cost me. And DSS is not by any means the cheapest backplate and wing source.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I do believe that the SP Classic is the best, safest, most durable, most convenient and most versatile BC there is

hmm...Have you ever looked at the Dive Rite Nomad? It seems to be just as safe and durable (I've taken mine on quite a few no mount dives. Not much is more punishing to a BC than that sort of diving. I think it's also user repairable while the Classic is not, or is less so, due to the inner bladder being completely removable from the system. Can you do this on the Classic?) and is considerably more versatile. I can use a Nomad with one tank, two tanks, doubles with as many stages as I can float with its massive lift and my drysuit, or even with no tanks. I can use those tanks on my back or on my side.

Why is it that the SP Classic is the most versatile again?


(and note, the Nomad, lacking a hard backplate, might have more in common with the Zeagle Ranger than a traditional backplate and wing)

I'm biased here too. I've used a Scubapro Classic. It fit me great...until I inflated it. And then I adjusted it, and it fit me great, until I deflated it. See a pattern? Additionally, it let the tank hit my head and the whole rig failed to follow my body as I moved like a backplate and wing.