Why do I need a Nitrox certification?

[Belce]

One of the videos I watched was a group in a compression chamber breathing oxygen and one of the six in the group has an O2 tox seizure. 1 in six just sitting and all he has a seizure. This is why recreational scuba has a very conservative limit for O2 partial pressure.

When it comes to breathing gas we humans are much constrained in what works, don't have to play much with some gas concentrations to cause an impact that is noticable. We have all heard people refer to the gas we take and breathe underwater as oxygen as well. Since we can't always do 20 questions when we do transaction for the breathing gas used in our life support system w ehave a cert card for it. It kinda works like your credit card, you don't know me from Adam, but you know Visa pays its bills, so when I give you my Visa card you sell me stuff because Visa has certified my credit and it is between me and Visa after.

 

[Slamfire]

We can pretend to be philosophers here... Knowledge can be verified, and a course (and testing) provides that verification. I think there's some power to that.

Ah yes, philosophy--humanity and BS. For this I'd recommend Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman. Nobody should be more interested in your own personal well-being than your own self. Relinquishing that primacy to an agency, a course or an instructor by not questioning them in your own head means putting your well being in the hands of entities that do not have your well being as their exclusively highest priority.

I find it easier to derive my own formulas from what I know of gases, than to blindly follow the step by step procedures the nitrox text book gives me. By using my derived formulas, I verify that I have a grasp on the subject. I then further verify them with an actual analyzer. I trust that methodology better than relying on a test answer key to tell me if I'm wrong or right. Unfortunately that answer key is only telling me if I followed steps correctly, it does not tell me if I actually understood why I was taking those steps.

Also, the course and testing are still made by fallible men. Here's a nitrox related example from a text book you probably have in your personal library. Section 4.2 in page 42 of this textbook says in its 1st paragraph:

Contrary to popular belief, oxygen is not flammable. Nonetheless, oxygen can act as catalyst for greatly accelerating the intensity of a fire. Because of this, it is always prudent to exercise great care around elevated oxygen levels.

While it is true that you should exercise great care around high O2 levels, saying that oxygen acts as a catalyst in a combustion reaction is completely erroneous. Oxygen is NOT a catalyst in combustion. It is a direct participant. It is the oxidizing agent in this redox reaction. The book might be written by a diving god of great undeniable feats and accomplishments but that 2nd sentence is just plain wrong and simply showcases his ignorance on this matter.

Does that mean I cannot learn anything from him or that I now know more than him in all things concerning diving? Of course not. It only means that the man can sometimes make mistakes and/or lacks some knowledge in certain areas. How does that affect me or my diving? Well, I'll finish reading the book and try to learn as much as I can from it, but I'll keep my eyes open for other potential mistakes and reserve the right to make my own final decisions on matters that concern my own well being, regardless of whether they agree with his book or not. After all, he's shown that he has made mistakes in the past, and it'll probably not be the last mistake he makes in his life.

 

[halocline]

Given the stunning lack of general dive knowledge and skills that some graduates of OW seem to have, personally I think that uncertified but self trained use of nitrox is probably not much of a threat. The trick would be to self train in a thorough manner.

The class that I took was filled with DM trainees, and even so, not all of us actually understood the concepts and the math. I STRONGLY suspect that most 'graduates' of a recreational nitrox class are basically plugging the EAN mixture into their computer, setting the MOD, and that's about it. They can't be worse prepared than someone who actually takes the time to self train and understand the concepts. What's more dangerous, an OW diver using air but without any real understanding of N2 loading and how it affects dive behavior, or the same diver using nitrox without any real understanding (other than an arbitrary MOD) of O2 loading?

Nitrox should be part of an OW class, but so should deeper dives, real navigation, basic deco theory including practical information about profile management and off gassing, much more stringent buoyancy and rescue skills, gas management, way more supervised dives, etc....

 

[RTee]

JMneil...quite frankly you don't require Nitrox certification and in fact nobody does. It is a personal choice. However, I really do find interesting that you ask such question publicly when apparently your mind seems to be already made up. If you are happy to dive it based on what you know, and more importantly be honest about you diving it the way you are with your diving buddies/dive operators then so be it. However, don't be surprised if other LDS refuse to give you fills or boat captain, DM of a charter boat refuse to take you along or folks that are unfamiliar with you refuse to pair up once you tell them you are a self taught nitrox diver. They also have their right to their own personal choices too.

Is Nitrox that complicated...No. In fact, when I took my course (PADI), I did it with an instructor who was also a tech diver and a good acquaintance. The interesting part was that this guy was half my age but very thorough. Not only did I read the PADi manual and watched the video, he also volunteered his TDI booklet as well because he knew I was after as much information as I could. When I went through my DM certification, he also loaned me his TDI Adv EAN and Deco procs booklet to complement the PADI theory portion. Needless to say that, from a therory perspective, my Adv EAN and Deco procs courses were a breeze after having already gone through the theory. I can also assure you that I never improvised myself as a deco diver just because I had gone through the material, had purchased the equipment and had been able to purchase/download deco table software...until I followed a proper course.

Being lucky to know many great instructors, I ensured that EAN was part of my son AOW course and at the end of the day, I think I ended up paying pretty much the standard AOW price for his combined courses. Same guy BTW who issued me and my GF our EAN certifications. In this day of age, I agree that nitrox should either be part of OW curriculum as a minimum or ideally, complement the deep dive section of the AOW course (60 - 100ft...where you see it prime benefits). I guess that is the price to pay when the majority of folks seem to be after a quickly obtained diving certification (OW in five days or less).

Are you gonna die? Probably not. Everyday I see folks driving much faster than the posted speed limits either in town, on county roads or highways. In fact at times, I see folks driving the spped limits when driving conditions dictate otherwise. Once in a while, I will see some lucky folks parked on the side of the roads with a police cruiser sitting on their tail gate and at other times, I see some in ditches, wrapped around powerlines/telephone poles or worse yet...involved in multi car pile-up they have caused. BTW, those who end up off roads are not necessarily those who were speeding up in the first place but folks who end up having to take evasive action. In this instance, I do not really worry about you but worry more about your followers because if you were able to self teach yourself, who says you will not improvise yourself as a DIY proclaimer to less experienced divers???.

 

[Sat Diver]

In this instance, I do not really worry about you but worry more about your followers because if you were able to self taught yourself, who says you will not improvise yourself as a DIY proclaimer to less experienced divers???.

This is the big worry ... in my experience, a lot of self taught divers tend to teach others. The big danger here is the chinese whispers syndrome, where the training (possibly dubious to begin with) gets more dangerous with each generation down.

You are welcome to dive anyway you see fit, since there appears to be very little regulation in rec diving. Whats sad is when other people get unwittingly injured or killed because of a decision you made.

 

[DevonDiver]

If some of the recent threads here in the Basic Scuba forum were to be believed, there's absolutely no need for scuba instruction at all. It's 100% safe.. guaranteed... and your dog could teach you all you'd ever need to know...

Now... off to the caves with a bottle of helium the lot of you! Have fun!

[sarcasm mode disengaged]

Nitrox is a pretty simple topic. However, that must be balanced against the consequences of error. It should also be balanced against the ease and relative cheapness with which effective training can be obtained.

Yes, you can read the theory in a book, or online. That covers a lot of options - but doesn't really instill the procedural discipline or operating practices that, whilst simple, will help safeguard you against catastrophic human error in the future.

I've always found that the 'simple things' are also those that are most likely to tempt us into complacency. When dealing with elevated ppO2, it is complacency that kills people.

Whilst not every (or many) nitrox courses taught will offer a robust focus on procedural discipline, go beyond the bare minimum of knowledge development and training mandated by the 'manual'...there are many that will.... and those are the ones that create safe, contentious nitrox divers.

Again... I can't help but think that over-simplification of training provision has created a circumstance where the need for training itself is brought into question.

I often find myself gob-smacked by the "what's the point in training?" attitude displayed by some of the novice divers who visit the forum. It's not something that I can associate with. I suppose the root of that disconnect stems from the fact that I completed my entry-level training several decades ago - before training courses were simplified to the point of virtual non-existence... and knowledge was imparted on courses that made them extremely valuable in every respect.

The only advice I could offer to a novice diver nowadays is to look beyond the basics - if you doubt that x, y or z training has credibility or relevance to you - then start to question what you do need to know. You'll see that there's much more than meets the eye... or more correctly... is written in a wafer-thin manual. Having opened that Pandora's Box.... go find yourself an instructor who'll teach you what you need to know, rather than just what the manual contains...

The essential value of effective training lies not in what you are taught, but how you are taught....as that is what defines your mindset and, consequently, determines how you make use of the knowledge you possess.

 

[Peter Guy]

I like Rhoneman's POV. I've mentioned before that I "teach" a "30 second Nitrox Class" (it can last as long as 3 minutes for a very slow learner).

a. Always analyze your own tank.

b. Only dive 32%.

c. Stay above 100 feet/30 meters.

What else does one really need to know?

 

[DiveNav]

......What is your most valuable asset when you are diving? .....

The gas in my tank.

Without gas in my tank I can not breathe.

Alberto (aka eDiver)

 

[Thalassamania]

The reality is that a certification is required to dive Nitrox. Most will have no issue with that, but those who do can talk to the hand! :cool2:

The certification is designed to keep people safe by educating them about the use of various O2 mixes, which BTW can kill you at depth. So you can die breathing pure O2 at 25', that is worth a class, no? The cert is real and failing to understand how O2 works at depth can result in death. Those are very good reasons to pay for a Nitrox class.

There are folks that will say you shouldn't have to pay X, or take class Y, but that is all pointless. The cert has value and is required so if your one of those idiots who is too thick headed to pay for the class then do not dive Nitrox. It's that simple.

I have been diving a while and have always had to show my Nitrox cert even when the shop knows me. Its a policy that all fill stations should have. The guy doing Nitrox fills without a cert deserves to be fired. I seriously doubt his boss is aware this is happening. He is risking his lively hood and if his insurance finds out things will hit the fan. Being a punk kid is cool until the business get closed down because your too thick headed to follow the rules.

Your claim that a nitrox class has value is entirely unsupported. Your entire argument is based on nothing more than, "that's the way it is, like it or lump it." When you do attempt an expedition into what is for you clearly the unknown, you get it wrong and that makes me wonder what the value of your nitrox training was. You should recognize that 25 feet is not the limit for pure oxygen, many of us used it for years and years down to 33, and even 60 ft (for short excursions), but in any case 25 feet on oxygen represents a ppO2 of 1.75, rather deeper than the current operational recommendation of 18 feet.

Really? I wonder why then I can go buy a 333 cu ft cylinder of O₂ and never have to show any scuba related plastic cards? So far there haven't been any mysterious mystical forces preventing me from decanting some O₂ into my dive tanks and then topping them up with air to make whatever mix I wish to do. Dive boats don't prevent my home brewed nitrox tanks from getting on board. Maybe I live in a different universe. If I have a chemistry degree do I need to have have a kid that only finished high school teach me about Daltons Law? Would said kid understand PV=nRT better than I do? How about (P+n²a/V²)(V-nb)=nRT?

Your post just screams "you're gonna die!!!". And you chastise readers into going through the traditional scuba industry to get their "talisman vaccine" that will save their lives. The fact is that the real life saver is knowledge and traditional scuba industry, IMO, does a less than complete job at imparting knowledge, at least at the basic nitrox course levels. There are so many more complete and better sources of physiological knowledge than to just go to your local LDS and pay $150 for a plastic card. Do you know how much time will an average human being have to be breathing pure O2 at 25' before he dies? I may sound like the viper in the garden of eden, but it is a fallacy that you will certainly die as soon as you cross the 1.6 ppO2 line. I realize you're not saying this, but when you say "you're gonna die", I have to ask "how long before I die under those conditions". And the truth is that not NOAA nor Bill Hamilton will have a definitive answer. So they did their best to try to keep you on the safer side of the risk continuum.
Zealot scuba police attitudes like these are the reason why I invested a lot of effort into being as much LDS independent as possible. I feel so blessed to live in a province where this zealot thinking has not infected real laws and I am FREE to dive however and with whatever I feel like.

---------- Post added April 27th, 2012 at 04:43 PM ----------

I wonder if building my own analyzer qualifies me to analyze my own gas without a nitrox card...

BTW, I do have nitrox cards from biggest scuba training agency in the world as well as the biggest scuba tech agency in the world, so don't get all flustered.

One of the best hands on lab classes I took when I was a senior in college involved very little interaction with my teacher. The teacher said here's a 286 computer, here are some servos, cables, here's a book about programming in QBASIC, there's a digital pH meter, now build an automatic titrator by then end of the semester. A structured, pre-digested, dumbed down, and incomplete learning path is not the only way to gather knowledge. As much as they would like to, the scuba industry does not hold an exclusively monopoly on all scuba related knowledge.

There are, in reality, two different discussion going on, one involves the value of leaning about nitrox before using it (which I don't see anyone opposing) the other involves how that learning should be delivered to the end user, which is a matter of contention.

Rather than debate the value or usefulness of the Nitrox card the best answer that I can come up with is that it is currently the accepted standard. It provides proof to the dive shop that you have received training in the use and potential problems with nitrox. The card does not guarantee that you won't abuse nitrox or do something that will get you hurt but at least you would understand the risks involved and how to reduce them. It also is not an ironclad guarantee that you had a quality course with an outstanding instructor but is definitely better than nothing at all. Come to think of it, this pretty much applies to C- cards in general. The whole certification card system may not be perfect but it does require you to learn the basics. For instance, there is quite a bit of information available in regards to nitrox that you can get without taking a course, such as the NOAA Diving Manual. Unfortunately, you have not read it and are not required to do so to get nitrox fills. You have thus illustrated the value of getting the card, as you would have to obtain the information first prior to using it. As you can read from the other posts there is a bit more to think about diving nitrox than you may have realized.

Here is a question for you to think about. How will you handle it when you go to the shop one day and a different person asks you for the Nitrox card? Will you honestly reply you don't have the card or will you create a scene because you have been denied something you have previously been allowed? Shops change employees and even sometimes change owners. The next person may be a bit more cautious or worried about potential liability. You may have already opened the can of worms by posting in a public forum what the shop was doing. The might just have been unaware you don't have the training and trusted that you did.

Does that not argue for nitrox becoming a standard part of all entry level training?

Yes, AJ, I might be too full of myself, but let me ask you this: Is cave diving for everybody? For that matter, is plain scuba diving for everybody? I think you'll agree that there are some people that should not do any form of diving.

Another question: What is your most valuable asset when you are diving? It's not your dpv, nor your regs, nor any other equipment. I would venture to say that it is not even your knowledge (IMO that would your 2nd most valuable asset). I think your most valuable asset is your brains. Your ability to solve unforeseen problems that you may not have any knowledge about.

I think you would agree, given the attention and care you pay to protecting and keeping a clear head while diving. Otherwise, why would you have that avatar?

I'm not saying that you have to have a college degree before you dive. I'm not even saying that regular scuba industry training is worthless. It is not. What I am saying is that the way of the traditional scuba industry is not the only way, and in some cases, the traditional scuba way is not the best way. What ticks me off is that the traditional scuba industry wants to make you believe it is the only way. "...

a certification is required to dive Nitrox." They would love to have you as a captive customer that has no other choice but to go through them.​

What I love is how those that would force you into taking their additionaly priced product were initially opposed to any use of nitrox by recreational divers, under any and all circumstances ... there opposition suddenly evaporated when the model of a new specialty course, rather than a change in entry level standards, was proposed.

IMHO advocating learning Nitrox procedures without the help of instructors ignores one basic fact of life. Not all divers know enough math (let alone algebra) to grasp what that 2 sided sheet of paper is telling them. I recently helped someone through the basic math who couldn't get the calculations right to save his life (irony intended) but he thought he was doing ok. Activities that present a potential health/fatality risk and are more complex than "do this, don't do that" are worth the price of a double check and correction.

Some folks will probably do just fine on their own IF they have a good grasp of math and basic algebra doesn't scare them...but I would say that a great many more look at a formula on a piece of paper and their eyes just sort of glaze over, these folks may well be risking their lives by not consulting a professional. Who are we to say which is which?

There is no math in a nitrox class that is not present in an entry level course (remember, EAN-21). Folks who can't handle that level of rudimentary math, perhaps , should not be diving.

... and everyone in the rec community was against Helium when we were using it. Guinea pigs breathing Voodoo gas comes to mind ;-)

Love it.

Excuse me, you're correct. If your stuff is not 02 clean there is increased risk for fire or explosion.

No, not really.

Assuming exposure to FO2 in excess of 40% such as commonly experienced during partial pressure blending. If you go to a place that banks say 32% then there is no increased risk.

Subtle distinction and I write this not to nitpick you but to demonstrate to the OP why he should really take the class and get certified.

It is not subtle and really does not require an entire stand-alone specialty course to express.

One of the videos I watched was a group in a compression chamber breathing oxygen and one of the six in the group has an O2 tox seizure. 1 in six just sitting and all he has a seizure. This is why recreational scuba has a very conservative limit for O2 partial pressure.

When it comes to breathing gas we humans are much constrained in what works, don't have to play much with some gas concentrations to cause an impact that is noticable. We have all heard people refer to the gas we take and breathe underwater as oxygen as well. Since we can't always do 20 questions when we do transaction for the breathing gas used in our life support system w ehave a cert card for it. It kinda works like your credit card, you don't know me from Adam, but you know Visa pays its bills, so when I give you my Visa card you sell me stuff because Visa has certified my credit and it is between me and Visa after.

In that chamber the subjects were at 60 feet before they switched to the BIB mask that delivered pure oxygen. This is relevant to nitrox how? It is relevant only in terms of an object lesson in not diving 40% below 200 feet.

This is the big worry ... in my experience, a lot of self taught divers tend to teach others. The big danger here is the chinese whispers syndrome, where the training (possibly dubious to begin with) gets more dangerous with each generation down.

You are welcome to dive anyway you see fit, since there appears to be very little regulation in rec diving. Whats sad is when other people get unwittingly injured or killed because of a decision you made.

And how is this "Chinese whispers syndrome" different from much of the claptrap that is passed of as diving "education" by those "professional" instructors who are capable of doing little more than repeating what their instructor and/or CD told them?

I like Rhoneman's POV. I've mentioned before that I "teach" a "30 second Nitrox Class" (it can last as long as 3 minutes for a very slow learner).

a. Always analyze your own tank.

b. Only dive 32%.

c. Stay above 100 feet/30 meters.

What else does one really need to know?

Not much, how to analyze maybe.

 

[Rogersea]

I've mentioned before that I "teach" a "30 second Nitrox Class" (it can last as long as 3 minutes for a very slow learner).

Peter I am interested to find out whose 3 minute course you are teaching? What I mean is which agency?

Cheers.
Roger