Death at Blue Springs State Park, Florida

[Jon_R]

I am interested in why Sam needed gas in the first place.

On tv they said the problem occurred three minutes into the dive at 80 feet. To short to be out of air unless started with couple hundred psi and to long for diving with valve closed and line pressurized... Very odd.


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[Ayisha]

On tv they said the problem occurred three minutes into the dive at 80 feet. To short to be out of air unless started with couple hundred psi and to long for diving with valve closed and line pressurized... Very odd.

Not too long if the valve was partially or more than partially open. Like you said, though, he could have been starting with a nearly empty tank.

 

[Jon_R]

Not too long if the valve was partially or more than partially open. Like you said, though, he could have been starting with a nearly empty tank.

I see a lot of people open the valve all the way then back a half turn. Not sure why. If you get that reversed I can see a big problem. Close it when you think you are opening then half turn open.

I just open mine all the way. Also test it.


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[fysherman]

Very sad indeed. I just did my checkout dives there two weeks prior. While I am new to diving, I am not new to water sports. And I know that the worse thing you can do is panic. As Jon_R stated, no one would want to buddy breathe from 80 feet but if we had to we could as long as we don't panic. And my dive buddy must have an alternate air source.

 

[Journey_On]

Very sad incident. My boyfriend and I have been planning to practice scuba skills in the pool, to get more comfortable with them. After hearing about this incident, we decided it was even more important to be more comfortable with skills like buddy breathing.

 

[Peter69_56]

I see a lot of people open the valve all the way then back a half turn. Not sure why. If you get that reversed I can see a big problem. Close it when you think you are opening then half turn open.

I just open mine all the way. Also test it. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Its normal practice with all valves unless back seated. The reason mainly is that if you open a valve the back it off a little, it becomes immediately apparent if you try and open it further with the intent to close it and hit the stop that you are going in the wrong direction. If the valve is already fully open and you turn it further it can jamb and then be stuck open.

An example is a valve that is really really tight. You turn it and are not sure if its the right way so most people naturally then try it the other way. Now they find it hard in both directions. Immediately confusion and uncertainty sets in. Which way to move it? We all know in the back of our mind that most single valves close clockwise and open anti clockwise, and yet in this situation we are unsure. We are also unsure if its wide open (particularly if stuck fully open) or closed? It also indicates that the valve is open (to some degree). If you back seat it "fully open" is it open or closed? with it not hard against the back stop its simple to test the valve to see where it is, a simple turn anticlockwise shows it was nearly fully open.

Also its standard procedure and if we all try and stick with standard procedure then in a crisis its easier for anyone to assist as we ALL have familiarity.

---------- Post added October 15th, 2013 at 03:52 PM ----------

You will be surprised at the number of divers who have at least once in their life, tried to dive with their air off. I know I did when I was first starting out, and as I reached the jump off point my air valve was checked by the dive boat assistant and her turned it on. I NOW ALWAYS suck from both my regs with gauge in hand to see that the tank pressure remains steady, a good sign my air is on and ok, all before I reach jump off point, but just before I go.

I heard of a story of a very experienced diver in Port Phillip bay (>700 dives) jump in with twin steels and go all the way to the bottom, no air on. Needless to say he is no longer with us. It can happen to anyone, no matter their experience level or knowledge. We ALL have bad days. the more routine you make the checks and tests the better it is from a point of not missing anything, not in a manner of doing it in a dream state, but in a form as pilots do; 1, 2, 3 , 4, 5 every time.

---------- Post added October 15th, 2013 at 04:00 PM ----------

Another incident we had early in our diving career which might be along the lines of what happened here. My wife went diving, before she went in her occy would slightly free flow, suck from it or hit it and it would stop. Soon after it would slightly leak a little again. We went in the water to test it and all seemed well. We used it an 3 dives but it seemed the same when above the surface. We took it in for a service and found the primary reg stuck with swarf material in it from when it was built. The line pressure was creeping up slowly thus it would slightly free flow, but soon as you sucked on it the line pressure dropped and it stopped free flowing. Had she of used it at significant depth it would not have provided sufficient air as the line pressure would have fallen right off. Without a buddy or over weighted with an uncontrolled descent it could have meant death.

 

[airstream]

If there is ANY doubt if you are opening or closing a valve then you better practice or find another sport.

 

[Peter69_56]

You would be surprised the number of people I see who are very unsure.

It is also human nature to doubt ones understanding of something when it doesn't go the way one expects. I have seen this often when the valve is tight and very hard to move, several people will be involved and they are turning it every which way.

To people who do this regularly its very simple, a standard valve is opened anti clockwise. But even telling people this and you see that it has not computed in their head "anti clockwise?" the brain cells are saying to them which way is this??????????? People who have little mechanical aptitude seem worse at it.

Like it or not that's the people we have to work with, and I bet no instructor will fail a student simply because they are somewhat confused with how a valve operates.

there is also nothing worse than getting a cylinder which has had its valve opened hard and now jammed fully open. I have been in the steam industry (electricity) for 35 years and virtually all valves are opened the same way. Open until it mates lightly on its open seat, then close a little. If done in this way little problems are experienced. If opened and spun open until it jams on the open seat is when problems occur. Mainly because one doesn't know if the valve is open or closed and then often turned further in the wrong direction jamming it more. Now with scuba if a reg is attached its easy to test, however its amazing how many people simply turn the valve one way or another rather than the simple method of purging the reg and seeing if the line pressure drops. Task fixation.

Anyway the standard is to open it fully then 1/2 turn closed. Most professionals in the industry follow this simple method.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Sorry but I like my valves turned all the way on and will know which way to close it if the need should come up. I have hever had a problem with a stuck valve nor have I seen one..ever! I would guess that their are more mistakes pertaining to which way to turn the valve than a stuck valve but openly welcome input from others. (always willing to accept other's opinion). Please do not touch my valves!

 

[lv2dive]

A few comments...

Its normal practice with all valves unless back seated. The reason mainly is that if you open a valve the back it off a little, it becomes immediately apparent if you try and open it further with the intent to close it and hit the stop that you are going in the wrong direction. If the valve is already fully open and you turn it further it can jamb and then be stuck open. ...
Also its standard procedure and if we all try and stick with standard procedure then in a crisis its easier for anyone to assist as we ALL have familiarity.

I would propose that it is not a standard to turn gas back half a turn. I've nothing against standards, but I just think it's more than a stretch to say that backing off the turn is a standard - i don't do it; I know several others who don't. Some do it, some don't - ergo, not a standard.

You will be surprised at the number of divers who have at least once in their life, tried to dive with their air off. I know I did when I was first starting out, and as I reached the jump off point my air valve was checked by the dive boat assistant and her turned it on. I NOW ALWAYS suck from both my regs with gauge in hand to see that the tank pressure remains steady, a good sign my air is on and ok, all before I reach jump off point, but just before I go.

I heard of a story of a very experienced diver in Port Phillip bay (>700 dives) jump in with twin steels and go all the way to the bottom, no air on. Needless to say he is no longer with us. It can happen to anyone, no matter their experience level or knowledge. ...

Completely agree it could happen to anyone anyone, regardless of experience level or knowledge. Disagree that it was "needless to say" that your aforementioned experienced diver is "no longer with us" - I would hope that if someone jumped in with gas turned off in steel dbls that they would a) go to a back up reg which hopefully wasn't turned off or b) reach back and turn on the gas! There would be no need for death to be the assumed result!


EDIT: The whole conversation on whether valves should be backed from full close came about because there was some discussion regarding this specific accident, about how could someone go out of gas so early in the dive? I believe there was some back and forth about the potential for valves to be fully closed and then slightly backed *on* (getting hard to breathe minutes into the dive which may have led someone to believe they were out of gas). I have in fact seen this happen - ONE of the reasons I choose to fully open and fully close my valves.

WRT to this particular incident, I don't believe that is what caused the problem but related discussion is part of the educational process of this forum if I am not mistaken. As it relates to the second quote above, I thought the inference was clear but perhaps not - if valves are closed they should be turned on. Again, I don't believe that caused this particular issue but in a similar instance, I am making the point that these things should not cause serious issues for the people involved.