Should we get pony bottles?

[phoenix31tt]

Both sides of the argument have valid points.. But they are not contradictory

Currently I think we are good buddies, and the goal is to become better buddies... With the introduction of another camera you can't deny the fact that attention will be away from each other for a little more time than it currently is... But still the goal is to maintain good buddy skills...

Our diving philosophy is to be totally self reliant but at the same time excellent buddies... That means that we each have a set of gear and skills that ensures that we can handle ourselves in the water... We each carry cutters, we each carry dsmbs etc... Does being a good buddy stop that? No. Is it necessary for each of us to have a dsmb if we're always together? NO. But the redundancy is there for the very remote chance that we are separated that we can signal the boat, this also increases our peace of mind

That being said, I think I have enough information now to make a decision: for the immediate future we will dive as is and increase our buddy skills and do the rescue course, following that as funds are available we will be getting ponies...

Between now and then I believe I know a shop that will allow me to try out ponies, so I will get one and sling to see how it really affects photography to determine whether we sling or mount...

Another great thread from Scubaboard members

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920

 

[TSandM]

Even though the OP has made his decision, I'd like to address why I would tell someone NOT to get a pony.

First off, I get a chance to see a great many local divers with them, using standard BCs. They pull the rig off balance, and I'm convinced they contribute to sculling and hand waving. Since I think one of the greatest things about diving (and a prerequisite for excellent photographs) is to be able to be still, I'm prejudiced against tank-mounted ponies on BCs.

A slung bottle on a BC or plate that can hold it stable is better, but again, until the diver has mastered stillness without it, they're going to have at least a learning curve for managing a gear setup that is unbalanced from side-to-side.

In addition, this adds the cost of an additional tank (not that much cheaper than one you could actually DIVE) and a regulator, which also then needs service.

Is it horrible? No. But I really think most people would be better served to put the money into more diving, or more coaching, and improving their skills and knowledge, instead of adopting a gear solution to what is really a planning problem.

 

[phoenix31tt]

until the diver has mastered stillness without it, they're going to have at least a learning curve for managing a gear setup that is unbalanced from side-to-side.

agreed, every dive i strive to master proper diving skills


take a look at this video and see how you can help me out, others have posted their remarks:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/467795-critique-my-diving.html

adopting a gear solution to what is really a planning problem.

can you clarify this point? I will explain my logic and if you could help me to understand how to plan better to avoid it...

we plan our depth, gas etc as per SOP using rock bottom... my logic with the pony is in the unlikely event of a separation you can be fully self reliant, even if its just to shoot a bag, ascend and safety stop...

how can i plan to avoid this off scenario

 

[TSandM]

I do technical and cave diving, which is arguably higher risk than simple recreational diving. We plan for ONE major failure. Team separation is a major failure -- once you are separated and unable to regroup, your only job is terminating the dive. The likelihood of a catastrophic equipment failure leaving you out of gas on precisely the dive where you have experienced a team breakdown is very, very low. If you have done your gas planning correctly, you have a reserve in your tank for the event of your buddy having a gas failure, so even if the separation makes you anxious and increases your consumption rate, you have a lot of gas you can use before you are going to be low.

I could posit a dive where you have a team separation but for some reason, you cannot surface and end the dive (a long way offshore, or in an area with a lot of boat traffic) and you have to spend a long time underwater alone to get home. My immediate reaction is that that isn't a single tank dive; my solution would be doubles, but yours might be a slung bottle. You can ask questions about whether such a dive is really a good idea in the first place, and you can also say that, if executing such a dive, team cohesion ought to be a VERY high priority.

I often get the feeling that I live in a different world from a lot of other divers, and maybe I do. I've had eight years of living in a diving community where diving as a team is a core value. We do a lot of training and a lot of practice to make sure we keep our situational awareness high, with a strong focus on remaining aware of one another and staying in communication. As a result, team separations are VERY, VERY rare, and usually brief. I guess the fact that I know this is possible does shape my advice -- as my dear friend HBDiveGirl says, "Dive to stay found," and you won't be DEALING with separations often enough to make carrying another piece of equipment to deal with them a necessity.

---o0o---

I watched your video, and your basic diving skill -- buoyancy, trim, propulsion -- is good. The lazy left foot will come with time, if you work on it. Those skills are part of the toolbox that will allow you to avoid team separation -- you won't suddenly drop the viz, you won't have a sudden loss of buoyancy control. Can you control a descent with the same degree of precision that you are using to move in and out of that wreck? A lot of people don't practice controlled descents, but descending at different rates is one of the common ways teams get separated. When you are moving single file, does the diver in back have a light you can see? If not, how often do you look back to check and see if she is there? Situational awareness is a lot of keeping a team together, and involves not getting focused for too long on any one thing, to the exclusion of everything else. My Fundies instructor's mantra was, "What's my depth? Where's my buddy? Look at the fish . . . " which gives you an idea of how to build an SA "sweep" that will make it much harder to become separated.

Think about it: How do you get separated from a buddy? By being unable to see them for a long enough period that you lose track of where they are. That time period can be long, if they are behaving predictably ("diving to stay found") or short, if they are not (loss of buoyancy control). Mastering solid basic skills permits a longer "sweep", but if you lose awareness for a long enough time, you lose anybody. Where we have had our team separations have been descending into virtually opaque water (sometimes the top of Puget Sound is truly pea soup), or running single file and having the diver in the back stop for some reason -- those have all been brief and quickly repaired, because both divers are behaving in a PREDICTABLE fashion. Solid skills and a good dive plan are the basis for predictable behavior -- couple that with a good SA sweep, and you'll almost never have a team breakdown.

 

[drrich2]

I often get the feeling that I live in a different world from a lot of other divers, and maybe I do. I've had eight years of living in a diving community where diving as a team is a core value. We do a lot of training and a lot of practice to make sure we keep our situational awareness high, with a strong focus on remaining aware of one another and staying in communication.

Your post got me thinking about some ways your experience and approach might differ from many mainstream recreational divers. My speculation:

1.) You are a Dive Master married to an usually good Instructor who buddies with some very advanced divers and has trained for and done some advanced technical diving, including cave diving, yes?

2.) Therefore, it stands to reason that you and your buddies have trained to a level (both mentally and physically) well beyond what's needed at the mainstream tropical reef diving level, although your more benign dives benefit from your advanced training and skill (e.g.: comfort level, buoyancy and low SAC rate, efficient finning).

3.) But if you weren't a dive professional or married to one and only did tropical coral reef dives in recreational limits, would you ever have sought out and followed through on GUE Fundamentals and other training? Outside of the demands of cave diving and avoiding silt outs, would you have gotten your buoyancy dialed in as well?

4.) If you weren't diving with similarly advanced divers, and 3.) above was also true, what level of proficiency would you have likely settled for?

Richard.

 

[phoenix31tt]

as usual, your posts are insightful and very thought provoking... lots more to think about as far as effective buddy diving goes and i do believe i will adopt that mantra... just to respond to a few of your comments:

I often get the feeling that I live in a different world from a lot of other divers, and maybe I do.

Maybe you do... but that is the world I make myself live in as far as diving goes… practice practice practice, our dives are a mixture of drills and fun… but to me drills are fun neways… we practice so much after the first couple dives the guide doesn’t even bother to ask if we are ok again when he sees us sharing air swimming over the reef

Can you control a descent with the same degree of precision that you are using to move in and out of that wreck? A lot of people don't practice controlled descents, but descending at different rates is one of the common ways teams get separated.

yes, I believe being able to stop in the middle of a descent is just as important as being able to stop in the middle of an ascent. [/quote]

When you are moving single file, does the diver in back have a light you can see? If not, how often do you look back to check and see if she is there?

not sure if it can be seen within the video, I at least glance at her to make sure she is there and not in distress[/QUOTE]


and richard:

2.) Therefore, it stands to reason that you and your buddies have trained to a level (both mentally and physically) well beyond what's needed at the mainstream tropical reef diving level, although your more benign dives benefit from your advanced training and skill (e.g.: comfort level, buoyancy and low SAC rate, efficient finning).

to some point… but I think a mainstream tropical reef diver SHOULD have a high level of proficiency regardless of his technical background… that’s what I aim for… and I am a “tropical reef diver”

3.) But if you weren't a dive professional or married to one and only did tropical coral reef dives in recreational limits, would you ever have sought out and followed through on GUE Fundamentals and other training? Outside of the demands of cave diving and avoiding silt outs, would you have gotten your buoyancy dialed in as well?

I did… because I believe that proficiency is proficiency… cave diving or not… I don’t even have local instructors that pay so much attention to this… much less for being married to one

4.) If you weren't diving with similarly advanced divers, and 3.) above was also true, what level of proficiency would you have likely settled for?

Not sure about TSandM… but I will not settle for anything less than perfection, doesn’t matter how many dives I do, I will keep practicing and aiming to be better

 

[diverrex]

I would agree that relatively new divers should concentrate on dive and buddy skills rather than get a pony as an extra safety measure. I know from experience that even with a not so good buddy if you don't want to get separated it's still possible to stick with the buddy. That sometimes means the dive you wanted to do becomes the dive the buddy wants to do and you give up some of your dive enjoyment.

I sometimes dive with a pony. If I am doing a boat dive and I don't think any of my regular buddies are going I will bring a pony as extra safety against an unknown buddy. I also photograph and most of my regular buddies also do. Whether we follow good buddy protocols is open for debate.

For many of our boat dives we don't know what sites we will be diving until we get there. Sites can vary from 40 -120 ft. I have both a 100 and a 130 tank. I ask myself what tank I want to take for what are unknown dive sites and possibly an unknown buddy. I used to use the 130 a lot. Lately I have been using the 100 with a pony. My wife only dives warm water once or twice a year so my pony reg becomes her warm water reg so it's not really an extra reg in our household. And I like testing out that reg on a pony before she uses it on a once or twice a year trip.

 

[flots am]

3.) But if you weren't a dive professional or married to one and only did tropical coral reef dives in recreational limits, would you ever have sought out and followed through on GUE Fundamentals and other training? Outside of the demands of cave diving and avoiding silt outs, would you have gotten your buoyancy dialed in as well?

Anybody can become a safe, excellent Open Water Diver without GUE. All it takes is a desire to become better, and practice.

The last part is the kicker. People who only do tropical dives and don't live in the tropics can easily go a year between dives, which allows for pretty much zero improvement.

Even though I'm in the pool for classes a couple of times a week, all it takes is being out for a couple of months during college winter break to make me feel borderline incompetent.

flots.

 

[TSandM]

I signed up for GUE training before I had any idea where diving would take me . . . on our first night of class, Steve asked us why we were there, and I said, "I want to be the best recreational diver I can be." I took the class because I had been exposed to the diving skills of people who had taken it. Even as a rank novice, I immediately saw that there was something different about those people -- they had better control, they could STOP to look at things, and you never had to worry about where they were. I wanted those things for my recreational diving. I still do. We try to teach them in our open water classes. We continue to work on them in our con-ed, including Peter's "Fundies-Lite" TecReational class.

So yes -- I took Fundies when neither of us was a pro (or had any idea we would be), and my tech training came as a RESULT of what I was exposed to there. I took it to solve exactly the problems people report here day after day -- buoyancy control issues, gas consumption issues, anxiety issues, buddy behavior issues. It did all those things.

 

[Max Speed]

So....who carries a Nautilus Lifeline strapped to their pony... I mean their unbalanced sidemount tank....I mean their remotely located independent twinset tank...I mean their stage bottle....yeah, that's the ticket!

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