Should we get pony bottles?

[dumpsterDiver]

I do technical and cave diving, which is arguably higher risk than simple recreational diving. We plan for ONE major failure. Team separation is a major failure -- once you are separated and unable to regroup, your only job is terminating the dive. The likelihood of a catastrophic equipment failure leaving you out of gas on precisely the dive where you have experienced a team breakdown is very, very low. If you have done your gas planning correctly, you have a reserve in your tank for the event of your buddy having a gas failure, so even if the separation makes you anxious and increases your consumption rate, you have a lot of gas you can use before you are going to be low.

I could posit a dive where you have a team separation but for some reason, you cannot surface and end the dive (a long way offshore, or in an area with a lot of boat traffic) and you have to spend a long time underwater alone to get home. My immediate reaction is that that isn't a single tank dive; my solution would be doubles, but yours might be a slung bottle. You can ask questions about whether such a dive is really a good idea in the first place, and you can also say that, if executing such a dive, team cohesion ought to be a VERY high priority.

I often get the feeling that I live in a different world from a lot of other divers, and maybe I do. I've had eight years of living in a diving community where diving as a team is a core value. We do a lot of training and a lot of practice to make sure we keep our situational awareness high, with a strong focus on remaining aware of one another and staying in communication. As a result, team separations are VERY, VERY rare, and usually brief. I guess the fact that I know this is possible does shape my advice -- as my dear friend HBDiveGirl says, "Dive to stay found," and you won't be DEALING with separations often enough to make carrying another piece of equipment to deal with them a necessity.

n.

I think this is very important. You ARE diving in a different world than most recreational divers. You have different training, different buddies, different objectives, different priorities and you view the buddy team as central to the whole dive experience.

The problem, as I see it, is that most (basic) dive training is really NOT good. Their buddy skills are NOT good, the priority of maintaining "tight" buddy team is low, their experience is vastly inferior, their situational awareness and ability to monitor their air reserves (on an almost intuitive basis) is just "not here", and their over all comfort and ability to correctly handle a potential OOA emergency is probably vastly different than yours and your team. In fact "normal" divers don't HAVE teams! They have buddies that get assigned to them in unfamiliar situations.


Combining all these differences leads me to conclude that the marginal utility of a pony bottle would be less to your team members than to a typical recreational diver. You may think that the solution is for them to be more like you (I.e., diving in a real team)..while I think a more practical solution for many of these people is to simply get a reasonably sized redundant system, certainly it is easier to attain than 8 years of diving experience with team-oriented "professionals".

 

[diverrex]

I just don't see this problem, but to be honest I don't dive with that many weak divers. When my youngest was 9, we started him on a 6 cu-ft pony and although I've never checked, I think the 6 may be the most negative pony with the realtively big valve and regulator etc...


The first few dives, he WAS off center. However, he was about 80 lbs and a 63 cu-ft aluminum tank was big for him. I added a 1 lb lead weight on the opposite side of his tank cam band and he was perfectly balanced. Maybe a year later when he had gained experience and 10 or 15 lbs of body weight, we took the weight of and he has never had a problem. A few weeks ago, (at 15 yrs old) he used a 13 cu-ft pony and I asked him if felt the difference from a 6 .. He said not really...

I really do not think that "off balance" is a reason to not use a pony..

When I tank mount my 19 I don't even know it's there, even when I have my weights equal on each side.

What I'm surprised about is how many people I see who solo who don't use a pony.

 

[Max Speed]

Ok, time for a poll. How many folks with at least 100 dives have never, ever found him/herself separated from a buddy by more than a 5 second swim? Because in an OOG situation, 5 seconds seems like an eternity and could easily mean the difference between survival and death from a full blown panic situation.

I would never rely on a buddy for a life or death solution.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[flots am]

You can ask questions about whether such a dive is really a good idea in the first place, and you can also say that, if executing such a dive, team cohesion ought to be a VERY high priority.

FWIW, "team" is something few divers actually have.

A buddy might be someone you dive with all the time, and who you can trust in an emergency or it could be someone you don't know or someone you know to not be competent.

If I really trust my buddy (a short list that has about 8 people on it right now), I might dive with just a single tank. For anybody else, I bring a pony or sidemounted doubles.

flots

---------- Post added November 1st, 2013 at 11:58 AM ----------

What I'm surprised about is how many people I see who solo who don't use a pony.

A redundant air source is covered by the solo class, although people can always choose their own risk tolerance.

I suppose it depends on how much you trust your ability to safely surface without air and how squeaky clean you are about never being anyplace where you can't immediately surface.

 

[DaleC]

To me, the question of being a good or bad buddy doesn't really factor into it. I see it more as a matter of choosing to be dependent or self sufficient. For the life of me, I cannot understand why agencies prefer to teach a primary system that places divers in a situation where they are dependent upon another person underwater; except that it gets a larger volume of new divers in the water with lower skill sets.

In my world, every sport diver would work towards being an autonomous unit, entirely capable of safe operation within the depths they choose to dive, either by CESA skills or by carrying a RAS. Then, those safe divers could choose to form safe buddy teams, wherein each diver would be capable of self rescue and the rescue of others.

Lynne presents one version of a buddy team (perfectly valid btw). I'll present another:

Some time ago a group of 4 divers (2 buddy teams) decided to do a shore dive. After a good pre-dive briefing, in which the route to follow was precisely detailed, they descended into what turned out to be moderate low vis. One team became separated on descent and, after looking around, three divers ascended according to their lost buddy protocol.
After looking for bubbles (and seeing none) a decision was made to begin a search, as it was assumed the diver must have encountered some sort of trouble. More divers joined in and a diver coordinated from the surface. Basic grids were swam and then extended towards the direction of the intended dive. With concern mounting 911 was called.
After 25 minutes, as the police and ambulance arrived, the missing diver reappeared further down the beach, after enjoying a pleasant and relaxing dive - in the exact opposite direction of the one intended.

Some might say they choose not to dive with this type of person but the interesting point was that, pre-dive, this person appeared to be attentive and responsible, known to the group and not noted to be a hot dog or a yahoo. A nice person who has happily since then, grown to become a better diver. At that time, when they should have made one decision, they made another, without understanding the ramifications. Fortunately, their buddy was on shore, and not experiencing difficulties of their own at depth.

I don't have a crystal ball to divine how others will really react (as opposed to how they say they will) so I both, choose to be a good buddy, and, choose to be self reliant.

 

[flots am]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why agencies prefer to teach a primary system that places divers in a situation where they are dependent upon another person underwater; except that it gets a larger volume of new divers in the water with lower skill sets.

They really don't. While all the various emergency skills in taught Open Water class are useful in an emergency, at it's most basic level, the only two things they really need to remember if "something bad happens" are:

• Don't hold your breath
• Go up, and make yourself buoyant on the surface.

Those two thing will fix nearly anything that an Open Water diver is likely to run into.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, almost none of the skills are ever practiced again after class, which means that anything bad has the potential to turn into a fatality, so I agree with you. Even though redundant air shouldn't be necessary within open water limits (~60' and no deco), I really think that it is, and that divers should be trained initially to be self-reliant, dive with a pony, and deal with a buddy on a "nice to have, but not necessary" basis.

Given the reality that recreational divers typically never practice emergency skills after certification, a pony is safer than almost anything else they can do.

flots

 

[diverrex]

To me, the question of being a good or bad buddy doesn't really factor into it. I see it more as a matter of choosing to be dependent or self sufficient. For the life of me, I cannot understand why agencies prefer to teach a primary system that places divers in a situation where they are dependent upon another person underwater; except that it gets a larger volume of new divers in the water with lower skill sets.

In my world, every sport diver would work towards being an autonomous unit, entirely capable of safe operation within the depths they choose to dive, either by CESA skills or by carrying a RAS. Then, those safe divers could choose to form safe buddy teams, wherein each diver would be capable of self rescue and the rescue of others.

I don't have a crystal ball to divine how others will really react (as opposed to how they say they will) so I both, choose to be a good buddy, and, choose to be self reliant.

This articulates well how I feel. Being a good buddy and being self sufficient are not mutually exclusive. I prefer to dive with a buddy. I prefer that buddy to be one of my regular buddies that I know I could count on. But I am prepared to be self sufficient if needed, and definitely am so when diving with an insta buddy since as pointed out matter the talk above who knows how some people may react below. I can appreciates the GUE trained team divers that can switch among buddies with ease all having basically the same equipment, training and protocols. For a number a reasons that is not the diving world many of us find.

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

I can appreciates the GUE trained team divers that can switch among buddies with ease all having basically the same equipment, training and protocols. For a number a reasons that is not the diving world many of us find.

UTD is an organization trying to change that, and make DIR style diving more accessible to beginning divers. They are training OW divers from the start using DIR compliant gear, drills and attitude. They've managed to train hundreds in this way, and more are being minted all the time. We can only hope to meet them on our future dive trips...

 

[JamesK]

UTD is an organization trying to change that, and make DIR style diving more accessible to beginning divers. They are training OW divers from the start using DIR compliant gear, drills and attitude. They've managed to train hundreds in this way, and more are being minted all the time. We can only hope to meet them on our future dive trips...

GUE Rec 1 is doing the same.

Note: not trying to put one against the other, just stating that GUE offers OW training for new divers as well.

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

GUE Rec 1 is doing the same.

Note: not trying to put one against the other, just stating that GUE offers OW training for new divers as well.

Awesome, I'm so glad this is a growing trend.