Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

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What larger needs? I don't think minors being taken into caves & killed via negligent ineptitude are a trend that we need to be dealing with.

As sad and unfortunate that this incident is I think the above thought is important. I don't see a rash of minors diving in caves. Luckily the vast majority of parents are responsible enough for this not to happen. When is the last time someone remembers this happening before? And the dive community may not be perfect but does a relatively good job of policing itself. We will never be able to avoid all outliers. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try but it will still happen. In this case I imagine they could have been stopped from cave diving and likely would have found a different activity to lead to the same result.
 
My deepest sympathy to those close to the family that are trying to even comprehend this tragedy...

Too many times a parents good intention to get their children involved in an activity blinds their own safety and common sense. He wanted to share an amazing sport with his son like any great father, and by passed the safety aspect. I hope many take this tragedy to heart when planning to introduce a a loved one to diving.
 
I have to disagree with this. I've been on caveatlas several times and never noticed that information. Of course, when I'm going there I know specifically what I'm looking for and don't stop to read anything but what I'm looking for.

CaveAtlas.com » Cave Diving » United States » Eagle's Nest
This is what came up on my phone for Eagles' Nest, and the very bottom of the page says things like needs Trimix training etc, etc and essentially don't wreck it for the rest of qualified cave divers by getting killed there. maybe one can bypass that page, but the warnings are there.
Certainly the father has the greatest responsibility, but it's hard to imagine the son was unaware of all the warning signs.
 
Morally there is the issue of just how far do you go to try and passively protect someone from themselves? Don't lend them the gear for one. Every time you see or hear of them about to undertake said actions remind them how messed up that is.

It is pretty clear that signs and certifications are not enough to keep people from dying by exceeding their limits. I also think that most people would agree that adding red tape is not a good solution either. So what we are left with are Jim's words--looking out for each other. There should be a cultural change, maybe going all the way to naming and shaming people who are making these mistakes or even just facilitating them. That is not legislation, that is not scuba police... but maybe if the diving community comes down on you when you're being foolish, the message will sink in and we won't have as many of these threads.

I don't know anything about caves or kids. Still, if I was at any site and learned that an OW diver was taking an uncertified diver into the water, I would have said something. Is it my "business?" Folks will differ on that. I feel like it is my business if having that confrontation is going to reduce my chances of pulling another body out of the water.

We should all feel obligated to say something. I hope that if I ever do anything ignorant, someone will do me that courtesy even if it's embarrassing and confrontational.

Those of you who feel like it is no one's business how anyone else conducts themselves may change their mind should they be forced to deal with a dive disaster personally.
 
If that movement has leader, please contact me as I'd like to donate time/money to the cause.

I am not yet a diver, but my father was a dive master for 20+ years, and I plan to become certified once my ears/nose are fixed.

What I am is a performing arts teacher (going to Seminary to become a Unitarian Universalist minister), on the look out for stories like this one to present to my students/congregation.

I have been making notes on a couple of other tragically Darwin Award worthy stories in Florida, for inclusion in a stage play, to then be adapted as a (very) low budget film.

I'm not sure yet how Dillon's story will fit into the narrative with my others, but I really think telling these tales of hubris/selfishness/tragedy can be a dramatic tool for great learning. If anyone has more of those horrifying "nails on the cave wall" stories to point me toward, or feels particularly passionate about lending creative energy (via email or in Florida), inbox me!!

I see where those folks are coming from, who comment "there is nothing new to be learned from this tragedy, " but a skillful story teller can teach children a valuable moral using an anecdote about something as commonplace as crossing the street.

Add elements of drama like this had, and people will really listen to morals like, "Do not place absolute trust in someone who lacks authority," "You get away with _____ until the day it goes wrong," "Those things that seem important enough to risk your life for will seem less magical when your brain finishes growing," and, most important:

Some authorities should be respected (as in, the panels of experts who determine which levels of certification are sufficient for a given activity), and some authorities (like a parent with a track record of impulsive decision making) should not.
 
Wow - having been away from SB for a day or so this has grown since I first posted, when very little was known because it was all so fresh. I have actually found the divergent views and opinions being expressed fascinating, and to a certain extent reflecting the background and in some cases nationality of the writer.

It does leave a number of thoughts and questions in my mind. I have also read quite a few news reports and comments, both on this and other forums, and that gives glimpses and insights into something of what seems to have happened - although with the caveat that news reports and so on are not always reliable sources.

The facts appear to be that an unqualified (for cave) diver has taken an unqualified diver on a dive which appears to have been beyond the techniques and equipment being used. One of the reports stated the dive computers showed they had been to 233 feet, and only had air available, a dangerous decision in any ones book. OK in the past people went deep on air, but now we know so much more about why this should not be done, (CNS toxicity etc.).

They apparently had insufficient air for the deco obligation a dive of that depth would give them, even had they got back to the drop tanks they had left behind them, and they no access to accelerate deco gases or procedures so had a hour or so of deco obligation which they could never hope to fulfil.

So for the moment if we forget the ages and 'qualifications' of those involved the problem appears to be that the dive plan, if it existed was either defective in that it did not cater for the dive environment and conditions, did not exist at all, other than "lets dive and see what happens from there", or else the dive plan may have been sound, but it was ignored and not followed. any of these three situations would very quickly have led to a dive from which there was no means of return.

After the dive plan the next major error was depth and gas choice - 233 foot on air is certainly not defensible these days with what we know about diving, and TRIMIX would have been a far more appropriate choice. Finally gas management - there simply was not enough available for the profile they dove.

Finally they were testing new gear - not clear what gear, but one report suggests the son received new air tanks for Christmas, certainly new gear testing and shakedown should ideally be done on a dive dedicated to the purpose, and not on a marginal or critical dive if you are not familiar with the gear.

So the problem seems to have been poor planning and execution, poor choice of activities, leading to an unrecoverable dive.

OK - what could have prevented that? - certainly there is a large case of when you are unconsciously incompetent you don't know what you don't know, so perhaps they did not know how to properly plan a dive of that sort, and did not perceive the risks, formal cave training would certainly have led to a far higher chance that the dive plan would have been sound and that the requirements of gas choice and management would have been more appropriate.

Breadth of experience, regardless of qualification, could also have greatly mitigated the risks, but in this case we know the father was in prison for two years leading up to December 2012, so regardless of how long he has had a qualification (9 years according to one report) at best he had been diving for about 12 months since a lay off of at least two years, so the diving experience of the father has to be called into doubt.

Likewise with the son, age aside, how much experience has he had? - clearly not enough to recognise the problems with the dive plan, or else his position and relationship with his father meant he was unable to challenge the failings. If his only diving training had come from the father, as seems likely, then he like as not did not see the problems for himself anyway.

So who can or should we "blame", either legally or morally?

There is mention in some reports that another diver, one of those who recovered the bodies had leant gear to the father. The interview I have read makes it clear that this was sometime in the past, does not in anyway suggest that it was cave diving gear, and clearly states that the cave diver refused to mentor or buddy the father until he was cave certified. It makes it clear he knew the father was cave diving, and he disapproved and told the father so, but what more could he do to stop him - legally nothing in my view. It isn't clear that he knew that the father was taking his son with him.

I don't see anything here to attach any blame to this person, and nothing to suggest he or his gear was in anyway involved with the tragic dive on Christmas Day.

The site management? - I know nothing about the area other than that I have read here and the diagrams in Sheck Exleys 'Caverns Measureless to Man', which has a description and basic sketch map. But it seems to me that it is a remote site, little or no onsite management, and it would be unreasonable to expect the management to do more that they have, i.e. the warning signs and advice against diving.

The divers themselves? - certainly - in the UK the father would be at risk of prosecution for endangering a child, whether there was a negative outcome or not - in UK law recklessness is defined by a court case referred to as [R v Caldwell], decided in 1971, which is still the standard today - a person is reckless if he gives no thought to a risk, or perceiving a risk goes on to take it anyway (vastly abbreviated definition but enough for here). So to focus on just one aspect, the risk of CNS at 233 on air, whether the father recognised the risk or not he would have been liable to prosecution for this. In UK law being a legal 'minor' the son cannot legally make this choice for himself, and the father is legally liable for decisions made on his behalf.

Should we insist on a cave certificate? - actually, controversially, I am not that convinced in the value of cards. What matters is comprehensive training and skills, whether on a formal course or not. After all how many people on this forum dive solo, side mount and so on without the appropriate cards or even started diving before agencies existed. Does that make their experience and training invalid? of course not.

The same applies with caves, in the early days there were no agencies offering qualifications. Early pioneers found put what worked and what need to be done, often at great personal cost. Yes - we now have the benefit of courses which distill the essence of all these years of learning and which accelerate the diver to the point of having those comprehensive skills and training, and are most certainly the most effective way of getting to that level, but that need not be the only way.

OK - rant/ramble over - there were some horrendous decision taken over this dive, and decisions taken which would be illegal in the legal framework I worked in, but how widely should the blame be spread? - only as far as the father in my opinion, this entire incident can and should be laid firmly at his door. - Phil
 
"Do not place absolute trust in someone who lacks authority,"
Actually, we don't feel you should put your trust in anyone else. Take responsibility for your own safety first and foremost. That's why a number of us don't sompletely excuse the son. Don't do a trust me dive, where you are relying on the skills, training or equipment of other divers. Even when taking a class, if it's done responsibly, the student never has to do a trust me dive. They should hit OW portion with the skills and knowledge needed to complete a safe dive.
 
Should we insist on a cave certificate? - actually, controversially, I am not that convinced in the value of cards. What matters is comprehensive training and skills, whether on a formal course or not. After all how many people on this forum dive solo, side mount and so on without the appropriate cards or even started diving before agencies existed. Does that make their experience and training invalid? of course not.

The same applies with caves

I normally dive sidemount. Most often wearing a drysuit. Sometimes I dive solo. I don't have cards for any of those things.

I also cave dive. Most definitely have the cards for that !
 
I initially excused the son from fault. Now that it is clear he was hanging out and posting on cave diving forums, I don't feel like I should do that much anymore. 15 year olds are beginning to learn to drive, they are becoming more responsible for themselves at this age; if they have the information available to them, they should be able to at least see SOME red flags. He should have known what he was doing was trouble.
 
After all how many people on this forum dive solo, side mount and so on without the appropriate cards or even started diving before agencies existed. Does that make their experience and training invalid? of course not.

While you make a good point, I suspect 2 counter-points would be:

1.) I think the odds of being able to informally and even independently learn to solo or side-mount dive with a reasonable margin of safety are higher than the odds of competently mastering cave diving. Put another way, give me 300 AOW divers with 100 dives each, & I'll split them into 3 100-subject groups, Group A independently researches, trains in & practices 50 dives solo, Group B side-mount, and Group C cave diving.

Which group is going to have more deaths after 50 dives? I'm SDI Solo certified, and value formal training, but I don't see these as being of equal risk.

2.) I believe cave diving is far more dangerous in the short term than either solo or side-mount diving. You could die doing any of them, or even OW single-tank buddy diving for that matter, but if we were talking about poker, I'd say uncertified cave diving is playing with a really bad hand...

Richard.
 

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