Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[kwinter]

At this point I'm only going to address the issue that Frank & Ray are getting bent out of shape about. Technically, anyone can dive anywhere without any training whatsoever. There is no license. There is no law. And if people keep dying, then the legislature is going to step in. That is not something we should want or sit idly by and let happen. The industry has to police itself or else big brother is going to step in and do it for us.

As a charter operator, Frank has an obligation to verify certification before hauling someone out to a dive site. No criminal law is involved, but there is civil liability. And the fear of that keeps him on the straight and narrow. But in this case at EN, there is no one that could or should be held liable except the father. So no one else did anything that raised any legality or liability issues. And maybe that's the biggest problem. I have no idea what the solution is, but if we don't come up with something then we should all expect dive sites to close (again) and legal restrictions to come up.

I was a member of the National Ski Patrol for a lot of years. There is nothing illegal about a person getting on skis for the first time, skipping any instruction or training, going to the top of an expert slope, pointing those sticks downhill and skiing straight down, completely out of control. I have seen exactly that many times. The ones that miraculously make it down without killing themselves or others think they did the greatest thing in the world and brag about it to everyone. And you can bet they would try again. It was the patrol's job, assigned by management, to do more than just pick up the pieces. We stood on the hill in critical places, telling people to slow down and ski in control, chasing down the ones who ignored or couldn't comply, and we were empowered to suspend their privileges on the spot even though they may have paid a lot of money for their ticket just 5 minutes earlier. Self-policing was the name of the game. Of course that was on private property, where management had the right to refuse service to anyone. The Feds are not going to provide that kind of manpower. If we don't find a way to do it ourselves, they will just cut off access.

 

[Jack Hammer]

Please ask more questions, which obviously cannot be answered, in your effort to defend the indefensible...

There is absolutely nothing to defend or attack at this point. "Gear" is pretty vague...

All we know about it at this point is a news reporter stated in an online article that a certified caver diver lent undisclosed "gear" to an adult certified OW diver with 8 years diving experience at an undisclosed time at some point in the past 6 months. There is no mention of any gear lent to the son.

It could just as easily be a snorkel and split fins as it could be full technical kit.

 

[DevonDiver]

This may sound controversial.... but when a community stands back, expresses regret or outrage, but then commits to doing absolutely nothing to prevent the same happening again... then PERHAPS formal regulation from the state is a necessary thing. It's deserved, if it happens.

 

[Hickdive]

There is no such thing as a scuba license, although they do call it that in the UK.

Just FYI we don't.

 

[diverrex]

Had the son died but the father somehow managed to survive I'd be surprised if he wasn't prosecuted.

 

[The Chairman]

I am starting to see a lot of posturing in this thread. People are trying to imply that they are taking the high road, while the plebes are trudging en masse to mediocrity. Let's avoid that.

Andy has suggested that we are doing "nothing" to prevent this from happening again and are therefore risking legislation. I think this comes from him never having been to Eagle's nest and not realizing how remote it is. It's located in the Chassahowitzka Wildlife Refuge, which is 31,000 acre preserve run by the US Fish and Wildlife that protects that portion of the Florida coast and wetlands. There is a check in, but it's on the honor system if no one is there, sort of like Peacock. I can't even remember them ever asking me what I was going to do in the reserve. Once you finally find the Eagle's nest, and it's way back there on dirt roads, there is a parking lot that funnels to a set of steps going into the water. The point to this preserve is to keep it as open to the public as possible and still protect the sensitive environment. There is no one there at Eagle's Nest to verify your qualifications, and personally, I don't think there should be.

The point is: you can't legislate stupidity. Hikers die all the time, but we don't close the parks. Here's a story about a couple of hikers who were rescued and then killed themselves minutes later by driving their car into the ocean. Lost hikers rescued, then die in tragic accident How do you legislate that? You can't. Accidents happen and sometimes they are caused by willful ignorance propelled by sheer stupidity and the inability to comprehend danger. Natural selection in action.

 

[HIGHwing]

On February of this year, I forced two open water divers out of the Devil's Cave that I caught mindlessly wandering through the Catacombs off the line. It's highly probable they are walking around today because my dive team stumbled upon folk wearing snorkels and split-fins. While the cave community applauded our action, the non-cavers pretty much decided I was the elitist cave-nazi operating a police state. I felt justified as they were trespassing (according to me) and to be honest I'm kinda tired of OW divers in there just waiting on death to arrive.

Perhaps the danger/risk faced in cave systems are not 100% apparent, until these divers turn around and don't recognize the way out. Using my own perspective, I'm not sure how cave diving and burying yourself alive are much different. I don't understand why divers don't have a natural fear of entering an extremely hostile environment completely unprepared. I was genuinely scared during my Full Cave course, but perhaps I was pushed really close to my limits, which leads to my extreme respect for the environment

When people ask me how much training is required to go cave diving, I try to make it very simple for them to understand. I point at the PADI map of education on the wall at the dive shop. I point out if you took every single course on that chart, you'd in no way be qualified to enter the cave environment.

I also wonder about some of the titles we use in the dive industry, and whether or not the titles contribute to unearned confidence. For example Master Diver; that sounds like you've got it wired like Cousteau or something. Like many in this thread who are commenting I hold advanced technical certifications and would in no way consider myself anything short of an apprentice (though I do have the Master Diver card!). I was no more of a Master Diver with a couple specialties and a Rescue Card in my pocket than I am with Full Cave, CCR, and Trimix cards. There is a lot to learn, and there is so much unknown in the area of decompression. Don't believe me? Well then start a thread titled "EAN80 is better than 100% for Decompression" and just wait to see what happens. Perhaps some of the inference in how quickly you can progress as a diver these days sets up an improper self-assessment of one's capabilities. While I see nothing wrong with promoting paying students through whatever courses they are qualified and wish to take, I do see some risks that need to be managed by the instructor.

Sorry for the rambling thoughts...

... particularly borne out by the fact that they had hung stage bottles at 130 feet ...

What gas was in those bottles?

 

[Tricia]

I suppose most of you have seen (on the news or in person) the wooden warning sign near the entrance to the Eagle's Nest that says it's a dangerous site and only experienced cave divers should go in. I'm wondering if they shouldn't modify the sign to list the names (and ages) of all those who have died inside. That might prevent at least one unqualified diver from going in there.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I suppose most of you have seen (on the news or in person) the wooden warning sign near the entrance to the Eagle's Nest that says it's a dangerous site and only experienced cave divers should go in. I'm wondering if they shouldn't modify the sign to list the names (and ages) of all those who have died inside. That might prevent at least one unqualified diver from going in there.

I suspect for people like the two that just died, it'd just increase the bragging rights ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[0002s]

When tragic events like this happen, people tend to start mixing up the discussions with what, how, why, and 'why did this have to' happen.

Simply put what happened is two people drown while diving.

How it happened is tougher to piece together because we really don't know ALL the pieces to the puzzle. Suffice to say they ran out of air before they made it back to the surface. The actual step by step details, I'm sure, will eventually be pieced together.

Now, why it happened is that a, presumable sane, adult started making a series of bad decisions that eventually led to his and his sons death. We can discuss the sanity, stupidity, lack of training and a like, but the fact remains that this man got on the poor decision making train with his son and they could have gotten off at many stops before their last stop. All of their decision, in the order they were made is why they eventually died. Had any of the decisions been altered, the results may have been different.

The hardest part to understand is why did it have to happen. These types of discussion always end up with 'camps' of people trying to make their points with other 'camps' of people trying to make their points. The issue usually is that all camps are making different points at the same time.

Nothing like this ever has to happen, but it will continue to happen as long as there are people in the world who are too stupid, ignorant, fool hardy, and the list goes on to believe that it won't happen to them. It can NEVER be regulated out of the human condition. You can close the Eagles Nest and people like this will move to another dangerous dive site, not heed any of the conventional warnings and or take all the necessary training to accomplish the dive. Even accomplished divers who have all the training, experience, and equipment die attempting dangerous dives.

But like anything, "given a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero". The problem is that the Eagles Nest can speed this timeline up exponentially and these two did not factor this into their decision making process.

To sum this up, predictable sad.