Deaths at Eagles Nest - Homosassa FL

[vincent54]

I suppose most of you have seen (on the news or in person) the wooden warning sign near the entrance to the Eagle's Nest that says it's a dangerous site and only experienced cave divers should go in. I'm wondering if they shouldn't modify the sign to list the names (and ages) of all those who have died inside. That might prevent at least one unqualified diver from going in there.

Actually it would create more of a problem. People will try to dive it just to say the survived an area known for it's fatalities. One of the posters somewhere on the forum has a quote about not fixing stupid. No matter how many warnings, regulations and even government interference, people will find a way to oft themselves. They will street race their cars, wheely through traffic on their motorcycles and at the end of the day they will kill themselves and others.

It is a judgement call for someone seeing a father and son scuba diving to interfere and say it's dangerous. The father/mother should make the call. I've seen parents let their kids do back flips on wake boards, jump off ramps snow skiing, ride 4 wheelers and it doesn't bother me a bit. It is not my business. The risk for injury in these those activities are far greater than diving. Who knows, the father's buddies may have thought they were capable. In the news recently, they just celebrated a nine year old climbing the highest mountain in South America. We have a double standard when it comes to stuff like this.

 

[The Chairman]

I suspect for people like the two that just died, it'd just increase the bragging rights ...

We have the road side lollipops here in Florida. They are memorials to the motorists who died there. When you see a lot of these lollipops on a stretch of road, it's a good indicator that you've entered a problematic area. If it only gets one person to rethink diving in a cave, then it's well worth it.

 

[PfcAJ]

I suspect for people like the two that just died, it'd just increase the bragging rights ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I tend to agree with you on this. Just look at all the "look at me" pics of divers with the grim reaper sign and the big "Dangerous Cave" sign at ginnie.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Maybe if they had the reaper posing over the autopsy photos of some of the divers that died it would have more effect? I know what the reaction was when I told a wreck student that he should remove a couple suicide clips that he had on his BC. Then the reaction after I showed him a pic of diver who was known for using clips like that on the Doria. Or rather pics of his body on the deck wrapped in cables. Followed this up with setting up a few controlled entanglements for him. The clips are now key rings.

But the problem with that is that you have get the chance to explain it to someone. And with so many pushing people into benign course after course with what amounts to ZERO discussions in real and graphic terms of the risks it's hard to get them taken seriously. It's why I show the Deceptive video and pictures of dead divers early on in the OW course. And feel they should be in training materials. I see the difference it makes in my students. Though given the seeming mindset of the dead in this case that likely would not have made a difference.

I do though want pictures of their bodies as they came out of the cave. In all seriousness I'd show them to every parent and child I train and explain why I conduct a class the way I do and the reason it's not a weekend or two weekend deal.

 

[RJP]

It is a judgement call for someone seeing a father and son scuba diving to interfere and say it's dangerous. The father/mother should make the call.

It's a "judgement call" in your mind? Really?

Please don't confuse the actual, specific events that occured here with some general, vague OW scuba diving scenario.

We're not talking about whether a complete stranger observing a guy and his son diving off a boat in the Cayman Islands should try to stop them.

We're talking about people who knew Spivey was not cave cert'd and knew that his son was not cert'd at all. These people are certified cave divers, who know the specific dangers and risks associated with cave diving. Further, these people know the particularly high risks associated with the EN system.

What about the specifics of this situation still constitutes "a judgement call" in your mind as to whether this was a dangerous situation? (Particularly in light of the fact that the father and mother had both repeatedly demonstrated a diminished capacity to determine that for themselves.)

 

[DevonDiver]

It's easy to demand regulation for someone else. Andy lives on the other side of the planet, and any regulation in this case wouldn't have any impact on his life ...

Agreed... which is why the suggestion might be considered solution-orientated without personal bias...

Many people outside the USA struggle to comprehend policies that seem to place selfish wants over larger needs. As you say, the gun debate illustrates that. The UK and Australia both effected gun bans in recent decades - and neither suffered major shootings since (and gun crime diminished to relatively nothing). People accepted the 'greater good' at the price of some liberty.

That may not work for the USA for reasons of the constitution, or just simple mindset... but it's wrong to assume that such policies are either ineffective or impossible. It's a choice you make - and something you should live with every time a minor gets buried..

Nonetheless, you are right - this shouldn't be a political issue. But to keep it becoming one, the dive community/industry needs to become more pro-actively involved in effective self-regulation. If the community/industry is to expect trust (and 'hands-off' by the regulators) then they need to earn that trust by taking responsibility. If nobody takes responsibility, then it shouldn't surprise anyone that the government regulators might feel a need to step-in.

 

[shoredivr]

It has been posted on here that the son was posting on the Cave Atlas website about his exploits with his father. Like all cave diving websites, Cave Atlas home page lists all the training you need before cavern and cave diving. It is impossible to not have read this information, nor avoid seeing the signs at the basin, or avoid seeing the Grim Reaper signs in the cavern zones of other caves. I'm forced to conclude that no amount of signs would have made a difference to either of them. Hubris, they were invincible. They had both been in EN before, it could never happen to them.

I suppose most of you have seen (on the news or in person) the wooden warning sign near the entrance to the Eagle's Nest that says it's a dangerous site and only experienced cave divers should go in. I'm wondering if they shouldn't modify the sign to list the names (and ages) of all those who have died inside. That might prevent at least one unqualified diver from going in there.

 

[The Chairman]

It's a national refuge, Bob. As little as it is used, there is no way to justify that.

 

[Dive-aholic]

It has been posted on here that the son was posting on the Cave Atlas website about his exploits with his father. Like all cave diving websites, Cave Atlas home page lists all the training you need before cavern and cave diving. It is impossible to not have read this information

I have to disagree with this. I've been on caveatlas several times and never noticed that information. Of course, when I'm going there I know specifically what I'm looking for and don't stop to read anything but what I'm looking for.

nor avoid seeing the signs at the basin

This I agree with. The sign is a fairly good size and difficult to miss. However, as has been pointed out, for some people this just adds to the bragging rights of some people. That being said, I don't think the signs should be removed. It likely keeps more people away than not. But there will always be the few who turn to their buddies, hand them their beer to hold, and jump in the water...

or avoid seeing the Grim Reaper signs in the cavern zones of other caves. I'm forced to conclude that no amount of signs would have made a difference to either of them. Hubris, they were invincible. They had both been in EN before, it could never happen to them.

We can't make this assumption of Dillon. He was simply hanging with dad. He probably thought the world of his father and would have followed him into a burning building because if dad was doing it then it must be okay and we'll be fine. At 15 most simply don't have the maturity level to deal with these things.

 

[Centrals]

Turns out this kid is a hero, and his doctor mom and EMT dad are really proud of him. They had to get a judge to allow him to make the climb. Anyone see parallels?

US boy, 9, is youngest to reach Aconcagua summit

Off topic.
It was the parents or the boy idea?
What is next?
Youngest person to climb all 14 8000m peaks without O2!!!