Rule of thirds for redundant air supply

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

The rule of thirds is adequate when diving recreational with a redundant gas supply.

The redundant supply should not be included in the gas plan as it pertains to gas you are expected to use, but CAN be used in planning contingency gas needs.

If you carry an extra 1/3 in a pony(let's say a 30cuft bottle), you are ensuring that you have enough gas to make an ascent solo from any recreational depth. Add on the 1/3 of your backgas that you start your ascent with and you have Way more than your rock bottom gas needs for a buddy team.
No failures? You never touch your pony.
Buddy has catastrophic failure? Donate your pony( or he can use his).
You have a failure? Use the damn pony.

That's what it is there for.
 
If you're using an AL80, your ideal redundant air supply would be a 26.4 cf tank...which doesn't exist, so you would carry an AL30.
.

The 'rule of thirds' as defined and as others have mentioned, means 1/3rd in - 1/3rd out - 1/3rd reserve. It's used as a safety factor for overhead environment diving, as others have mentioned. However, as others haven't mentioned, it is also a standard practice in general technical diving, for both back-gas and deco gas.

In this debate we are talking about redundancy and reserve - because we aren't using doubles, we are using single+pony. Because of that, it is important to differentiate between the reserve (of back gas) and the redundancy.

- In technical diving (double tanks), that 'rule of thirds' is calculated by multiplying the calculated gas requirement by 1.5. (50% of total reserve) i.e. divide your tank by 2 and add on that 1/2 as reserve.

- It is not calculated by dividing your tank by 3 and adding on that extra 1/3rd - that would provide an insufficient amount. (25% of total reserve)

If applied to this scenario, it'd apply it to mean a redundancy 50% of your primary tank. So, for an AL80, your 1/3rd redundancy would be an AL40.

The reserve (of your primary) would be a simple 1/3rd tank, or rock-bottom...

You have a routine 1/3rd reserve in your primary cylinder (single) and your redundancy accounts for 1/3rd of your total gas. See the nuance? :wink:

1. "Rule of Thirds" does not apply to open water buddy diving. It is dangerous to do so, and will not give you enough gas to get out of an emergency in many situations.

If 'rule of thirds' provides sufficient gas for a pair in an overhead environment, I'm perplexed why it would be dangerous in an open-water environment. Given that an immediate abort/ascent remains the luxury of open-water diving. That does, of course, assume that the buddy pair 'turn' and ascend based on the fastest consumption of gas (the person with the highest SAC initiates the turn/ascent) and/or any variation in tank volume is accounted for.

There is no extra requirement in open-water diving. Whether open-water or overhead environment, the diver must carry sufficient gas to return, with buddy, to the surface or the next gas source (stages, deco etc). Either way, the 1/3rd rule applies.

More conservative fractions (i.e. rule of 1/4 or more) tend to be applied in circumstances where more insulation is required because the equal relationship between speed of entry and exit is less guaranteed; such as through restrictions, against flows on exit, or where there is a predictable increased risk of lost viz etc...

2. "Rule of Thirds" applies only to buddy diving in an overhead environment.

As mentioned, 'rule of thirds' has been taught for technical/decompression open-water 'buddy' diving as a standard, by most agencies - both for back-gas and deco gas.

3. "Rule of Thirds" also has no logical basis in OW solo diving. Your gas reserve for solo diving is based upon your calculated needs, not some arbitrary "Rule of Thirds."

In this respect, you are only considering the needs of an unimpeded ascent on demand. It's impossible to 'calculate your needs' for interrupted ascents. Solo divers should account for delayed ascents; due to the risk on entanglement/entrapment etc etc. They should also account for such scenarios imposing unforseen decompression obligations...

To use your example, for the solo diver, with reserve and redundant gas, here's how I would do it:

OW Buddy Diving on the wreck of the Spiegel Grove
Total Gas = AL80 at 3,000 PSI + AL40 at 3000 PSI
"Rock Bottom" Gas = 1,200 PSI


Sorry.. I can't "think imperial" and don't want to make a maths error... so here's metric:

AL80 volume is 11 Litres / Pressure is 200bar = 2200 litres of air - primary
AL40 volume is 5.5 Litres / Pressure is 200bar = 1100 litres of air - redundant
Total gas volume carried is 3300 litres of air.

Turn point is calculated on backgas/primary cylinder only, as the redundant is not factored as a reserve. That turn-point is 1/3rd of backgas, so: 200 bar/3 = 65bar (rounded down for safety).

Diver 'turns' the dive at 135bar of the AL80, having used 715 litres of air (2585 litres remains in both tanks)
Diver 'surfaces' the dive at 65bar of the AL80, having used 1485 litres of air (1815 litres remains in both tanks)

This provides a very healthy contingency. In the worst case scenario; gas loss at the furthest point, the diver is assured of a 50% redundant reserve volume (1100 litres) in relation to their primary gas - more than enough to return and ascend. It also covers unforeseen issues, such as the level of deco obligation that would realistically present from a moderate overstay, or that unforeseen interruption to ascent.

The upshot of ALL of this discussion is that double tanks is far simpler and safer, compared to single+pony. This is because the reserve and the redundancy is integral and subject to a singular calculation.
 
If 'rule of thirds' provides sufficient gas for a pair in an overhead environment, I'm perplexed why it would be dangerous in an open-water environment.

Explanation was given in my post above. If you need me to run through a scenario with incremental calculations to illustrate my point, I will be happy to do so. This is why recreational divers get into trouble when blindly using "Thirds" without understanding "Thirds" - they don't fully understand the concept and risks. Most rec divers will simply divide their gas by 3 ("Thirds"). As stated in my above post, this is not appropriate and doesn't give you enough reserve in certain situations.

It's impossible to 'calculate your needs'...

It is not "impossible." Any advanced diver can calculate their gas needs for any given scenario, as can any technical diver. Again, if you need me to explain how to calculate your gas requirements I can do it here on the forum, or you can send me a PM, or you can search this board for instructions.

To use your example, for the solo diver, with reserve and redundant gas, here's how I would do it:

OW Buddy Diving on the wreck of the Spiegel Grove
Total Gas = AL80 at 3,000 PSI + AL40 at 3000 PSI
"Rock Bottom" Gas = 1,200 PSI

An AL40 at 3,000 PSI should be enough reserve, depending on the actual dive plan, but the solo diver should calculate their actual gas needs for the scenario for verification. From experience, I know that an AL40 is plenty for me because of my dive profiles and calculations that I've done in the past.

BTW, "rock bottom" gas has no role in solo diving.

..., it is also a standard practice in general technical diving, for both back-gas and deco gas.

Yes, I consider tech diving "overhead" diving because the deco requirements is, for practical purposes, an "overhead" ceiling. But I should have clarified my statement to include deco and overehead.

The upshot of ALL of this discussion is that double tanks is far simpler and safer, compared to single+pony. This is because the reserve and the redundancy is integral and subject to a singular calculation.

Not true.

Using doubles is not "'far simpler and safer" when compared to single+pony. Try climbing down rocky seashores in doubles. In situations like that, it is far simpler to carry a couple of singles, one at a time, than struggle with doubles, especially if they are steel doubles. Additionally, doubles are not even available in many locations. I would rather not deal with the hassles of flying in my own set of double hardware, and assembling the rig, when I am flying to remote islands.

But... I will solo with doubles instead of a single+pony if the choice is equal otherwise.
 
It is not "impossible." Any advanced diver can calculate their gas needs for any given scenario, as can any technical diver. Again, if you need me to explain how to calculate your gas requirements I can do it here on the forum, or you can send me a PM, or you can search this board for instructions.

You mentioned 'rock bottom'. Kindly explain how 'rock bottom' or 'accurate reserve' factors accurately for a diver caught in a dense ball of monofilament, drops his cutting device in the silt, needs to find it, needs to extract himself, then ascend...

Solo diving requires a reserve and redundancy (I differentiate) to cover many eventualities. 'Any simple calculation of gas required for a proper ascent, does not cover those eventualities. It covers only an unimpeded ascent. It is inherently inaccurate.

So... for that diver stuck in monofilament, grasping around for his dropped knife in the mud... what is the 'accurate' minimum gas requirement for ascent? Let's say he is at 18m/60ft... Your calculations please... :D

I do get what you're say; "dumb rule-of-thirds" can be flawed... and that applies to any diver, open-water, solo, team, buddied, technical, cave, whatever....

I apply rule-of-thirds to redundancy. That covers your 'I'm gonna live' scenarios - it is emergency management. Setting an appropriate reserve is merely an exercise to prevent an emergency occurring (and, by default, I classify the need to use your redundancy as an emergency).

Redundancy should follow rule-of-thirds... calculated as 1.5x your primary gas. Reserves, in contrast, can be calculated a number of ways - if you get it wrong and need to access your redundant pony, then you know you miscalculated. You're still going home though :D

As I choose to define it, when applied to Single+Pony diving:

Reserve: The amount of gas that you plan to surface with at the end of the dive, having reserved it for unforeseen issues.

Redundancy: The amount of gas reserved in a separate source, specifically for emergency management and ascent.


.. the solo diver should calculate their actual gas needs for the scenario for verification. From experience, I know that an AL40 is plenty for me because of my dive profiles and calculations that I've done in the past.

You are only dealing with foreseen and predictable emergencies. One essense of solo diving is allowing for the unforeseen - a healthy reserve.

Gas is time, time is life. A mantra for the solo diver to meditate upon...

Using doubles is not "'far simpler and safer" when compared to single+pony. Try climbing down rocky seashores in doubles....

I will clarify, from a "....gas management perspective". Happy now? :)

I use sidemount.... doubles.... I shuttle tanks...far simpler and safer than a single and pony...worn... over dubious terrain. :wink:

In situations like that, it is far simpler to carry a couple of singles, one at a time, than struggle with doubles, especially if they are steel doubles. Additionally, doubles are not even available in many locations. I would rather not deal with the hassles of flying in my own set of double hardware, and assembling the rig, when I am flying to remote islands.

See above :D

I consider sidemount (doubles) to be a very optimal solo diving configuration under most circumstances. The training is readily accessible now also...
 
Thanks Devondiver. I dont think it could be put any better than that.
For me its real simple i have a al 40 as a pony that is more than 1/3 of most any tank. With that i have the wequivilant of 1/2 of a back gas tank to get from bottom to surface and can get to the surface on the pony only.
 
1. "Rule of Thirds" does not apply to open water buddy diving. It is dangerous to do so, and will not give you enough gas to get out of an emergency in many situations.

2. "Rule of Thirds" applies only to buddy diving in an overhead environment. (EDIT: and tech/deco diving)

3. "Rule of Thirds" also has no logical basis in OW solo diving. Your gas reserve for solo diving is based upon your calculated needs, not some arbitrary "Rule of Thirds."

1. As a matter of interest, have you done a formal solo diving course?

2. Have you done any training in gas management in any of the recreational diving courses?

3. With regard to 2, which one?

---------- Post added January 26th, 2014 at 12:01 AM ----------

Plenty of contradictory opinions here. If nothing else this serves to highlight why you should do the solo diving course.

No one has properly addressed the question posed in the OP. I believe I dealt with this in my previous post #9. If you have anything further to add in relation to that then feel free.

There are plenty of threads discussing required reserve gas volumes so no need to turn this into another such thread.

If you are still confused after reading those threads, like I was, then do the course and it will become a lot simpler and more clear.

The best discussion I've seen on this to date was by Steve Lewis aka Doppler. He wrote the SDI solo training course book so he literally wrote the book.

Steve Lewis (diver) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is an article by Steve on calculating your reserve gas supply/independent gas supply requirements.

https://decodoppler.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/

I have no problem with the calculation method but there are aspects that seem overly conservative like the time allowance before ascent and the maximum depth assumed. In general I'm prepared to defer to his expertise. If you follow the method you can tweek these numbers and get the size of your pony bottle for a range of depths. I've got a 2.7 L/19 cf pony and would consider getting another larger one for deeper dives.

Incidentally, the english in the book get's clumsy at times and the proof reading was a bit shoddy. Aside from that Steve evidently has the technical diving knowledge to be able to address the issues authoritatively.
 
Hey all,

Here is my dive plan:

The dive boat is moored on a slightly sloping seafloor.
--In close proximity to the boat the depth is between 35' to 55'.
--I will be solo diving.
--I will be performing either a hub-and-spoke dive pattern with a greatest range of 125' from the mooring.
--Or, I will do a square expanding search pattern with a greatest range from the mooring point of 125'. Well, one or the other.
--I will be using my PST E100 tank.
--I am in pretty good shape; therefore, my sac rate should be about .5 cf.p.m.
--The water is 80 degrees.
--vis is 100'
--current is negligible.
--LAN just passed.

Should I use this tank as my pony?
Image for Faber 50 Cubic Foot Low Pressure Steel Tank Tank

As a PMI trained project manager, we use the theory of "tailoring" to identify process groups that should be, or should not be, used to accomplish projects. Should tailoring be used in SCUBA diving? Brett Gilliam may not be familiar with PMI's "tailoring" theory, but after reading some of his works, he seemed to be a fan of it, at least in theory.

thanks,

markm
 
Nothing to do with this topic. Start another thread.

Wow, Ok.

Actually, I think it does. The rule of thirds is an arbitrary rule of thumb. It is a good cross check. That is all it is.

Properly planning your dive and covering your contingencies is the point. Brett Gilliam was ardently against group-think-rules of thumb that did not fit particular situations.

My point is this, tailor your gear for your dive plan. If your are cavern diving without proper gear, training, and adequate reserves, don't be upset with a bad outcome. Or, if you are diving below the boat in 50' of water, don't take every piece of gear you own! I think others were trying to make the same point...at least I think they were!

markm
 
You asked what size pony bottle you need for a certain dive. I'd start another thread and have your query discussed in some detail.
 

Back
Top Bottom