Negative buoyancy, learning to swim?

[boulderjohn]

The important skill in swimming for a diver, is not how fast they can swim in 50 meters...it is how comfortable they would be in the water if they had to swim for an hour or more....how efficient and effortless they could do this...

To make your point more effectively, you should probably point out some specific historical examples in which scuba divers found themselves having to swim on the surface for an hour without access to any sort of flotation device (like a BCD). If people knew how commonly such a thing happens, they will be more motivated to prepare for such an emergency. I would have provided those examples for you myself, but I couldn't think of any. I'm sure you must know of some you could showcase.

 

[Akimbo]

To make your point more effectively, you should probably point out some specific historical examples in which scuba divers found themselves having to swim on the surface for an hour without access to any sort of flotation device (like a BCD)...

You miss the point entirely. Knowing deep in your soul that you can swim for an hour or two, albeit slowly, is important to the mentality of safe diving and being at sea. It is about confidence, which fosters considerable resistance to panic.

BCs are irrelevant if you are wearing a wet or drysuit and have enough brains to dump lead.

 

[danvolker]

To make your point more effectively, you should probably point out some specific historical examples in which scuba divers found themselves having to swim on the surface for an hour without access to any sort of flotation device (like a BCD). If people knew how commonly such a thing happens, they will be more motivated to prepare for such an emergency. I would have provided those examples for you myself, but I couldn't think of any. I'm sure you must know of some you could showcase.

John, I doubt there would be any liklihood of a scuba diver having to swim for hours without mask, fins and snorkel. .or tank....
The issue I am raising, is that almost every weak swimmer I have ever met, that tried to learn scuba diving, found themselves in an alien environment that kept them too nervous and uncomfortable, for them to learn scuba well.

Those that decided to get swimming lessons, transformed to easy learners for scuba afterwards.

With my Project Seahorse events , where we take kids in varrying degrees of swimming skill ( from unable to swim one lap, to very good swimmers)...and we teach them Finctional swimming ( how to be comfortable as long as needed), and rhen we teach snorkeling, and then freediving...
Without exception, the kids that swim comfortably, learn snorkeling and freedive skills quickly and easily....the kids that had trouble with one lap, could not really learn snorkeling until we go them to be comfortable swimming...once comfortable, all of a sudden they could try snorkel skills and succeed.

I will post 2 videos of this....

---------- Post added October 30th, 2015 at 02:13 PM ----------

[video=youtube;zNjY2KqHQ14]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNjY2KqHQ14&[/video]
You can start this 1st vid at about 1:42 into it, and get right to the kids learning part.

---------- Post added October 30th, 2015 at 02:15 PM ----------

[video=youtube;MTB5mnBpo84]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTB5mnBpo84&[/video]

It is also my contention, that the basic skills learned in snorkeling and freediving, create a powerful foundation for scuba development.

---------- Post added October 30th, 2015 at 03:04 PM ----------

If I had to swim for an hour or more, I'd be doing either an elementary back stroke or a side stroke. I find the crawl and breast strokes quite tiring.

When a expert swimming instructor works with you, there would be a huge increase in the efficiency of each stroke...what was tiring before, becomes much easier. Everything becomes easier. You feel like you are just wandering along , more like walking.

Here is a useful tangent....
Do you know a bad flyer? A person that is near panicking each time they fly?
People like this are so close to panic while flying, that if you tried to teach them something very basic on the plane flight, their learning potential would be a fraction of what it would be if they were relaxed, paying attention, and engaged in the learning process.....But when panicked, there is little engagement, and little learning.

Most non-swimmers are very close to panic when placed in the water with a scuba tank on...Poor swimmers are similar, their weakness at swimming still has them in near panic--they are NOT in control of their environment. The water does not make sense to them, their arms and legs do not do what they want from them....and they will be focused heavily on this feeling of near helplessness.


When we take a kid, and get them to be a good swimmer....then teach them to become a great snorkeler or freediver.....when they go to try a scuba class....they are at 100% engagement, they are not afraid, they know they can learn this, and they know they will be good at it...and everything they try to do in scuba skills, will make sense to them--due to their familiarity with the water.....because of the foundational swimming skills, being in the ocean is no more stressful than being in a forest, and taking a hike.

 

[dmaziuk]

The issue I am raising, is that almost every weak swimmer I have ever met, that tried to learn scuba diving, found themselves in an alien environment that kept them too nervous and uncomfortable, for them to learn scuba well.

I would add that once you get to the "stroke proficiency" level, you'd likely have a pretty good feel for your trim, making the whole "buoyancy, propulsion, an trim" thing much easier too. And besides, if you swim for an hour at pool's surface in fins with "not a flotation device" kickboard, it'd be good for your kicking underwater later.

 

[GoIllini]

When we take a kid, and get them to be a good swimmer....then teach them to become a great snorkeler or freediver.....when they go to try a scuba class....they are at 100% engagement, they are not afraid, they know they can learn this, and they know they will be good at it...and everything they try to do in scuba skills, will make sense to them--due to their familiarity with the water.....because of the foundational swimming skills, being in the ocean is no more stressful than being in a forest, and taking a hike.

I know I'm being really nitpicky here, but I just want to make sure that along with comfort in the water, you're also teaching respect for it, too. Being in a pool, being in the ocean... is demonstrably not as safe as being in a forest. Especially at 100 feet.

As part of the red cross courses, we also had to teach water safety. How to do reaching or throwing assists. Why you should never swim alone. Always wear a lifejacket on a boat. We might have even taught rescue breathing IIRC in one of the higher level courses. The point is that stuff can happen in the water even to good swimmers and you have to be prepared for it... so there's a healthy level of stress that comes with being in the water or being responsible for people in the water.

Just make sure you're not telling kids to go swimming alone in the ocean or in their backyard pool when they get home.

 

[danvolker]

I know I'm being really nitpicky here, but I just want to make sure that along with comfort in the water, you're also teaching respect for it, too. Being in a pool, being in the ocean... is empirically not as safe as being in a forest. Especially at 100 feet.

As part of the red cross courses, we also had to teach water safety. How to do reaching or throwing assists. Why you should never swim alone. Always wear a lifejacket on a boat. We might have even taught rescue breathing IIRC in one of the higher level courses. The point is that stuff can happen in the water even to good swimmers and you have to prepare for it... there's a healthy level of stress that comes with being in the water or being responsible for others in the water.

Just make sure you're not telling kids to go swimming alone in the ocean or in their backyard pool when they get home.

Very important point...and yes we do....We get kids buddying together even in the pool, and always in ocean....
This is actually a key part of freedive training today...that you teach freedivers to have a buddy watching during a drop, and able to help if needed. Teaching the rescue techniques, and best practices, will come in future Project Seahorse summer training. This last year, we had 141 kids, and each kid went through at least three, "5" hour day, pool sessions, prior to getting in ocean with us...and then getting to put all the learned behaviors into practice.

Jonathon Dickonson of Florida Freedivers, is one of the top Freedive instructors for kids in the world...and he is a partner with Jim Abernethy and I in this training of the kids...you see Jonathon in the first video. His methods of training are amazing....next year we hope to get closer to 1000 kids from the camp system through our program.

 

[TMHeimer]

dmaziuk, Well, 50 yards-- heck I could do that easily before finding my 1970 form. There's a lot of physics involved and we may not be very far apart with our theories. But lets say the two equally people in size and shape (with differing buoyancies) have equal lung capacity. Lets' examine Phelps and Spitz for lung capacity. I'm not saying negative buoyancy contributes a huge % of energy going to keeping the swimmer afloat, but that it contributes at least a little bit. Agree that head above the water contributes to drag, but that's a technique issue, not a buoyancy one.

 

[dmaziuk]

dmaziuk, Well, 50 yards-- heck I could do that easily before finding my 1970 form. There's a lot of physics involved and we may not be very far apart with our theories. But lets say the two equally people in size and shape (with differing buoyancies) have equal lung capacity. Lets' examine Phelps and Spitz for lung capacity. I'm not saying negative buoyancy contributes a huge % of energy going to keeping the swimmer afloat, but that it contributes at least a little bit. Agree that head above the water contributes to drag, but that's a technique issue, not a buoyancy one.

Well, that's my point: how much of the OP's problem is a technique rather than buoyancy issue?
Both Phelps and Spitz started swimming at 6-7 yo while they were growing, I bet their lung volume is "lots". Larger than an average 6' human.

 

[TMHeimer]

Well, that's my point: how much of the OP's problem is a technique rather than buoyancy issue?Both Phelps and Spitz started swimming at 6-7 yo while they were growing, I bet their lung volume is "lots". Larger than an average 6' human.

Agree. I get wrapped up in the body buoyancy thing when there are much bigger problems.

 

[MinimalMayhem]

OP get a swimming teacher, really it's as simple as that.

I think I can empathise with where you're at, I'm a terrible swimmer and have had swim teachers shake their heads and say to me 'you really are a sinker aren't you...'

That said, back when I passed my padi dm swim tests I did so with minimum points by lying on my back and doing a sort of jellyfish stroke - legs like breaststroke and arm sweeping in from the sides. Worked for me ymmv.

In 15 years of diving the most useful thing being able to swim has done for me is being able to jump off the back of the boat for a pee comfortably when there's no head on the boat!