AOW/Rescue Diver Not Respected

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'd love to include Self-Reliant, but with the 100-dive prereq, it excludes a lot of people.

I do plan on asking PADI about exactly that. Does the requirement for a course translate to an adventure dive? Common sense would say yes, but common sense doesn't apply universally.

I received today from PADI the self-reliant diver instructor guide. I don't see any reason why the first dive couldn't be taught in AOW. I don't think there is anything in the first dive of that course that would be beyond an inexperienced diver who still hasn't demonstrated that he/she won't lose their **** in a stressful situation. I can see the reason for the 100 dive requirement for the second dive in the course, however.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

If that person has a legal duty-of-care or liability for the diver, then it's absurd to think they shouldn't be permitted to assess and form a judgement over the diver's relative competency for a dive.

We're talking about a situation were some idiot can wander into your business with a plastic card, vast sense of entitlement and a deluded sense if their relative competency. (see 'Dunning-Kruger effect').

That person may wish to undertake dives that are vastly beyond their actual capability. If they hurt themselves, they'll blame (and sue) everyone else involved. If they kill themselves it's business suicide for the dive operator concerned.

But sure.... the customer is paying money, so that makes them automatically right. And scuba diving is such an over-priced rip off, right?!

God forbid any dive operation might put safety first...in priority over appeasing the demands of divers whose minor financial expenditures grant them a ghastly sense of entitlement...

Again, this points to some sort of fantasy that a c-card constitutes a 'license' granting the holder an entitlement to waltz into any dive operation and demand whatever they want.

A c-card is nothing more than a proof of training. It shows you did a course, once upon a time, and did potentially *just enough* to pass that course. Remember that virtually no-one fails scuba courses...

Also, very few....a tiny minority of divers ever practice their skills post-certification... it's prudent to NOT assume that the diver has retained anything like the level of skill ability they demonstrated at the time of graduation.

Dive pros see this day-in, day-out. The ethical ones stand firm on safety. The disreputable ones pander and grovel to the customer's delusions because they won't ever turn down a quick buck.

When divers visit enough unethical dive centers they start to believe that syphcophantic pandering....and coupled with their gross inexperience... it can create laughable delusions of grandeur.

They get 'insulted' when someone ethical finally says "No" and.... shock...horror .. actually asks them to prove their ability.

Instructors are deemed prudent to assess student diver competency during training. What illogical delusion needs to be raised in order to suggest that they're somehow unqualified to assess a diver's competency after qualification!!?

If you, the diver, were willing to accept an instructor's assessment to pass your courses, then you should also accept the same authority-to-assess outside of the training relationship.

Strikes me as an attitude that you'd only accept an assessment if it were positive and empowering.... but would throw a big hissy tantrum should the very same person suggest a negative assessment that limits what you believe is some illusionary entitlement you possess..

That would all make sense if scuba instructors were not ......some of the worst divers - I have ever seen. Plus, we as customers have no choice but to rely upon instructors to give us our initial training.

Also, it is hard to hold "dive instructors" in such high regard,, when we SEE the fruits of their labors.. and even the instructors themselves apparently don't trust the "work" that their colleagues have performed in the training process or a diver who presents with a log book, certification cards and can talk the talk is NOT trusted by these same instructors to be competent to do a recreational dive.

We were freediving last weekend around a bunch of scuba divers ascending from an 80 ft wreck dive and my son (who has never been around "typical" recreational divers), was completely and utterly amazed at the lack of situational awareness and competency that several of the divers exhibited. He couldn't stop talking about it to me. He kept saying that it was amazing that they don't die. These are conclusions he is drawing from his own observations.

The training industry has a lot of issues, and the necessity to perform check out dives on experienced, certified divers is evidence of it.

 

[DevonDiver]

@dumpsterDiver

So what you're saying is that we can't even assume an ability level from instructors.

I agree.

Logically, that shows an even clearer reason why we shouldn't assume an ability level from divers.

Basically, be prepared to demonstrate your ability when required, regardless of your
level.

Walk the walk...

I've seen dire, awful, laughably bad, divers at every level... Open Water through to Trimix Instructor Trainer...

C-cards and log books provide very little prediction of actual ability. Fact of life.

That disadvantages those of genuine ability. But it protects from those of deluded ability.

 

[Bennno]

So what you're saying is that we can't even assume an ability level from instructors.

I agree.

Is anyone actually doubting that? Look at the requirements to become a PADI/SSI/IANTD/etc. Tec instructor!

Diving really seems to be the only sport were you 'level-up' by paying, not by skill. In a sense, the commercial agenies are running some sort of a pyramid scheme. Pay to be a sales person for us (instructor/DM), pay more if you wanna sell a wider variaty of products (specialty and tec instructors), pay more to 'train' more sales people youself (IT/CD), oh yeah, and you have to pay a membership fee!

I've seen dire, awful, laughably bad, divers at every level... Open Water through to Trimix Instructor Trainer...

Yes, I have too. Quite a few actually and I would include cave and rebreather instructors.

 

[D_B]

I'm sorry if this has already been pointed out ... it's the instructor that passes these students, or not .. that matters .... he has control over that.
yes, I'm one of those that took AOW right after OW , I thought it would be a good course , and I wanted to dive more with my instructor (who has a contagious passion for the ocean, and his divers) .. I learned a lot, most fun/hardest course I've had .. yes, taking it later might have allowed me to retain more of it (and I applaud those instructors that allow people to take the course again later for a lesser fee) but if you are ready for open water, have a good handle on trim, buoyancy, comfort in the water (you know, that OW cert you have) take the course .. besides, just when is the correct time to become a more thinking, more safe diver?

 

[kelemvor]

If that person has a legal duty-of-care or liability for the diver, then it's absurd to think they shouldn't be permitted to assess and form a judgement over the diver's relative competency for a dive.

We're talking about a situation where some idiot can wander into your business with a plastic card, vast sense of entitlement and a deluded sense of their own competency. (see 'Dunning-Kruger effect').

That person may (and this IS common, believe me) wish to undertake dives that are vastly beyond their actual capability. If they hurt themselves, they'll blame (and sue) everyone else involved. If they kill themselves it's business suicide for the dive operator concerned.

But sure.... the customer is paying money, so that makes them automatically right. And scuba diving is such an over-priced rip off, right?!

God forbid any dive operation might put safety first...in priority over appeasing the demands of divers whose minor financial expenditures grant them a ghastly sense of entitlement...

Again, this points to some sort of fantasy that a c-card constitutes a 'license' granting the holder an entitlement to waltz into any dive operation and demand whatever they want.

A c-card is nothing more than a proof of training. It shows you did a course, once upon a time, and did potentially *just enough* to pass that course. Remember that virtually no-one fails scuba courses...

Also, very few....a tiny minority of divers ever practice their skills post-certification... it's prudent to NOT assume that the diver has retained anything like the level of skill ability they demonstrated at the time of graduation.

Dive pros see this day-in, day-out. The ethical ones stand firm on safety. The disreputable ones pander and grovel to the customer's delusions because they won't ever turn down a quick buck.

When divers visit enough unethical dive centers they start to believe that syphcophantic pandering....and coupled with their gross inexperience... it can create laughable delusions of grandeur.

They get 'insulted' when someone ethical finally says "No" and.... shock...horror .. actually asks them to prove their ability.

Instructors are deemed prudent to assess student diver competency during training. What illogical delusion needs to be raised in order to suggest that they're somehow unqualified to assess a diver's competency after qualification!!?

If you, the diver, were willing to accept an instructor's assessment to pass your courses, then you should also accept the same authority-to-assess outside of the training relationship.

Strikes me as an attitude that you'd only accept an assessment if it were positive and empowering.... but would throw a big hissy tantrum should the very same person suggest a negative assessment that limits what you believe is some illusionary entitlement you possess..

I understand what you are saying, but only if I take into account the fact this:

You are advertising on your website and presumably in your shop that you offer PADI certification. I assume because you believe PADI certification to be a good thing to sell to your customer, and you will likely tell them something to the effect of PADI certification is accepted all over the world. Some of those customers you might sell more advanced training to over open water. I think it's likely even, given that you specialize in technical training. Fast forward to a month or a year later when that customer who trusted you goes to an operator somewhere else who has not heard of Andy Davis. They schedule a dive and are told... we don't know you, and don't trust that Andy Davis or PADI has actually done their job in training you. You must first pay us to do a checkout dive before you can do any other diving with us. If your skills are lacking, we can sell you a PADI refresher (or some other course). That course will obviously be accepted at PADI operators all over the world.

You should be angry at PADI, not your customers.

Basically, you're saying that certifications issued by big certification agencies are worthless. Yet, you sell such certifications yourself.

I used PADI as an example because it's what you list on your website. AFAIK, the situation is the same with all agencies. It's an ugly situation that costs divers money and time. I live with it, as I said. I have seen folks get angry about it, both on scubaboard and in person. I don't think they're wrong to get angry, really.

 

[Bennno]

Basically, you're saying that certifications issued by big certification agencies are worthless. Yet, you sell such certifications yourself.

There is not much he can do though. The other commercial agenies aren't much better and they not going change anything because of their conflict of interest.

 

[kelemvor]

There is not much he can do though. The other commercial agencies aren't much better and they not going change anything because of their conflict of interest.

He could at least offer free trips for the check out dives in order to share the cost with the customer. I bet if enough instructors raised hell to their agencies something would eventually get done. If say, a few thousand operators called and filed complaints every time they came across the situation...

Really, I don't expect any of that to happen. I just want him to acknowledge that the problem is the fault of his agency, and by doing nothing he perpetuates it. It certainly isn't my fault that some other diver got shoddy instruction from some instructor that I didn't use. Yet if I were to dive with his op, I would suffer the consequences. Just some acknowledgement of where the blame lies is all I'm hoping for.

 

[Bennno]

If say, a few thousand operators called and filed complaints every time they came across the situation...

Lots/most of them are not interested in higher standards as it's goes against their financial interest. Imagine you're a tec instructor/IT: You wanna have a large customer base and the lower the standards the more people you can sell to. If the requirement for deco training would be 100 dive instead of 30 dives, you would sell less. It's that simple. Same goes for instructor ratings.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Any diver who shows up for a week on a liveaboard with a Freedom plate, 18# bright purple Oxycheq wing, and dives barefoot with yellow Force Fins should not have to do a checkout dive. Just my opinion

I confused the DM who was doing our paperwork & C-card verification by handing him my Advanced Nitrox card. The 100% oxygen limit confused him.

I think they watched me extra closely during the first dive.

Some people are easily confused. I was once nearly denied the right to dive nitrox because I only had a trimix card with me. I told the helpful young man "OK, give me trimix then, just don't put any helium in it".

... Bob (Grateful Diver)