When to start considering CCR training

[Suslavich]

The first time I saw a pair of divers sporting CCRs was when I was diving in a spring cavern near Ocala Fl. Since then it has been a dream of mine to one day get to dive bubble-free further into the freshwater caverns. I am an engineer and a very techy person.The whole idea of breathing a closed system intrigues me. Not to mention having the ability to get the perfect gas blend for any depth to extend bottom time.

Currently I am AOW and EAN certified with most of my dives in a overhead environment and a good portion to 100 ffw. I feel like I have really fine-tuned my breathing, buoyancy control and dive skills in general (I don't mean to sound arrogant there because I know I still have tons more to learn before I can even conciser to call myself an experienced diver).

My question is at what point should I start considering becoming a CCR diver? I don't want to be that guy who shows up completely unqualified, but I do feel like I could handle a more advanced rig. I am quite used to being methodical and checking multiple systems at a time (I am an experienced pilot and hold a high-performance multi-engine aircraft licence with an IFR endorsement). At the same time switching to a CCR and obtaining the proper training with it will likely cost upwards of ten grand, a big investment. I don't want to start down the rebreather path if I am not ready for it.

Should I start looking into CCR training? If not, what should I do to be better prepared and obtain skills for a CCR course?

 

[KevinNM]

I'm not a rebreather diver, but I don't think you are at that point. I would think that you would need a few hundred dives first and also be able and willing to dive very regularly with your CCR to maintain proficiency. The stats on CCRs are that they are significantly more dangerous to use than OC, like 10x. If you are thinking of doing more than recreational scale diving, well, a failed CCR means you are an open circuit diver. Having bailed out from your CCR due to a CO2 hit is probably not the best time to be conducting your first non-instructor supervised OC deco ascent from 210 feet or swimming thousands of feet out from a cave on OC. So learning how to do this on OC first seems to make sense to me, but opinions vary.

 

[tbone1004]

interesting question and one my dive team and I went back and forth on recently before we committed to them.
There are two real justifications that I see for CCR. One is you actually can justify it because the dives become impractical without one. The two of these are long cave dives where the amount of open circuit gas becomes impractical, the other is deep dives where the cost of helium and quantity of it make CCR easy to justify.
We fit into that category because our cave dives are getting to the point of being impractical with open circuit and in order to not restrict our growth as cave divers, we need to get onto a CCR. For a completely arbitrary reference, if diving goes to level 10, and you can only get there practically on a CCR, we are at a level 6. Open circuit can realistically take you to an 8, but when you get on a CCR you have to go back to level 5 before you can go back up to 10. We are getting on CCR now because it will be a smaller step back in our diving as opposed to waiting until we are farther forward and then have to take a big step back.

The other justification is because you want to and you can afford it. Absolutely nothing wrong with this, and I think everyone in the category above also falls into this category. We all do this for fun, so we have to choose to make the investment.

Now, for when you're ready. Technically anyone is ready. Poseidon had a first a year or so ago with a brand new open water diver getting their OW certification on the Se7en rebreather.
Regarding your skills. Unfortunately all of that will go to sh!t once on a CCR because you can't control buoyancy with your breathing which is a bit of a disaster on the first day for even the most experienced divers and instructors. You'll get over it fairly quickly, but unfortunately it will make you feel like a brand new diver all over again. Comfort in the water, and attention to detail are really going to be the two big things that you need to have. Sounds like you think you have both, so if you can and you want to, I don't really see a reason not to.

There is a general feeling that too many people are getting on rebreathers just because they can, and to some extent it is true, but that is another discussion that I'm sure will come up on this thread. You do need to maintain your OC skills, so going back and diving on OC gear is important, and making sure that as you progress as a diver you are making sure that your OC skills are still intact and growing with your ccr skills.

Like any gear acquisition, you need to look at the end and work your way backwards. In this case, it will help you determine which unit you go with, and which instructor you choose to teach you.

 

[RainPilot]

What tbone said.

As a recreational CCR diver, I would say that you are fine to go onto a type R CCR with your current levels. Most of the things that get you dead on a RB start between your ears. Attitude and mindset are VERY big factors in the risk assessment.

Luckily several of the factors that make a good CCR driver are also those that make one a good pilot so you may be partway there already.

HOWEVER... there is a big difference between OW/AOW type diving on a RB and overhead diving on same. As tbone said, you will need to take a few steps back in that environment when transitioning to CCR. That is also reflected in every agencies CCR Cave training progression.

RAID is AFAIK the only agency that has meshing OC and CC programs that allow you to do any level of diving on either system as well as allow credit when switching between them for common skills / knowledge.

 

[doctormike]

If you really have less than 50 dives, I think that you should dive more. There is no substitute for experience, especially when things start to go bad. Having hundreds of dives in your log book means that you are more comfortable in just dealing with stuff underwater in general, and making the switch to CCR means that you have to be VERY comfortable underwater before you start dealing with all of the new stuff you need to monitor and skills you need to develop.

That having been said, it doesn't sound like you are nearing the point where you NEED a CCR because the dives you are doing are not practical on OC (as tbone mentioned). But that's OK, I wasn't either when I trained on my rebreather, and I don't think that I ever will get to that point. I don't dive very deep and I don't dive in caves. Planning on Mod 2 this summer so that I can get back to deco, but that's about it.

I went to CCR because I really wanted to, it looked cool and techy and interesting and challenging. I don't see anything wrong with that. I mean, unless someone is paying you to dive, we are all just doing this for fun anyway, right? So if you find the CCR fun, that's a perfectly good reason to do it at some point.

Yeah, I'm an underwater photographer and you can get closer to the fish (so far I think that's BS). It is certainly nice not to have to schlep two sets of double 119s to the dive shop and back every week in the season. But mainly, when the buoyancy is dialed in and you are quietly breathing warm, moist air for two hours underwater, it's awesome.

 

[hroark2112]

Most instructors will require a minimum amount of dives, plus advanced nitrox/deco procedures complete. Ideally you'll be a competent diver with the requisite skills to handle the types of emergencies that are likely to happen on a CCR. You also need to have the right mindset, which includes the attitude that no matter what the circumstances, if something goes wrong you bail out and scrub the dive. It's not always what you want to do, but it is what you have to do. Bad things are inevitable, if you dive rebreathers long enough you will have something happen where you need to take action. That's why training is the way it is and why you practice your skills regularly.

Some say CCR diving is more dangerous. To some extent that is true. However, if you follow your checklists, maintenance, scrubber times and manufacturers instructions, even when something bad does happen, you've got enough OC gas with you to deal with the issue.

Once you think you're ready, do your research on which unit you want to dive. Don't pick one based on cost, or bells & whistles, or what you saw once on a dive boat. Pick the one that matches your diving style, ability and personality best. If possible hit a demo day and do a try dive. Realize that you're going to suck in the water on that dive, you will not have the kind of control you are used to having. That's OK, it takes time.

I won't go into the "why" of your choice. I'm one of those guys who went CCR because I wanted to, not because I needed to. I truly enjoy diving CCR and prefer it over OC diving. 90% of my dives can be done OC, but I dive them on one of my CCR's because I want to. Your reasons are your own and are none of anyone's business, so don't listen to the naysayers.

 

[manni-yunk]

Your may be fine now.....I think some people overthink the "when am I ready for CCR"...The fact is, your CCR instructor will judge that in class.

I know someone who did 20 dives in OC and has been CCR since (8 years) and then people who did several thousand OC dives before switching over.... Neither is better or worse on CCR.

We are all different. Go meet with an instructor and do a CCR try it dive. The instructor will know if you are ready or not...not random people reading a profile on the internet trying to make generalizations....

 

[Pullnglide]

If you are thinking of doing more than recreational scale diving, well, a failed CCR means you are an open circuit diver. Having bailed out from your CCR due to a CO2 hit is probably not the best time to be conducting your first non-instructor supervised OC deco ascent from 210 feet or swimming thousands of feet out from a cave on OC. So learning how to do this on OC first seems to make sense to me, but opinions vary.

Just my opinion but I think that's the best advice for the OPs question! A CCR diver turns into a OC diver to BO. If you decide to go the deeper route i.e. Normoxic/hypoxic then in that case it may be best to start with a RB due to the course and OC helium costs. That was a recommendation of an instructor I had. I chose the OC route which is the best option for my current level of diving. I know absolutely nothing about RB so don't take any of my advice to heart

 

[KenGordon]

The first time I saw a pair of divers sporting CCRs was when I was diving in a spring cavern near Ocala Fl. Since then it has been a dream of mine to one day get to dive bubble-free further into the freshwater caverns. I am an engineer and a very techy person.The whole idea of breathing a closed system intrigues me. Not to mention having the ability to get the perfect gas blend for any depth to extend bottom time.

Currently I am AOW and EAN certified with most of my dives in a overhead environment and a good portion to 100 ffw. I feel like I have really fine-tuned my breathing, buoyancy control and dive skills in general (I don't mean to sound arrogant there because I know I still have tons more to learn before I can even conciser to call myself an experienced diver).

My question is at what point should I start considering becoming a CCR diver? I don't want to be that guy who shows up completely unqualified, but I do feel like I could handle a more advanced rig. I am quite used to being methodical and checking multiple systems at a time (I am an experienced pilot and hold a high-performance multi-engine aircraft licence with an IFR endorsement). At the same time switching to a CCR and obtaining the proper training with it will likely cost upwards of ten grand, a big investment. I don't want to start down the rebreather path if I am not ready for it.

Should I start looking into CCR training? If not, what should I do to be better prepared and obtain skills for a CCR course?

How good are you really? How comfortable are you in the water and when a bit stressed? If you are comfortable with lots going on, dealing with distractions and being able to prioritise properly then go for it. Do TDI Air Dil beforehand buying a unit and see how you like it.

The key skill in CCR diving is knowing the ppo2 as if it is uncontrolled you can pass out without warning which isn't recommended under water. However you need to do that while doing all that other stuff you might do on a dive. This getting task fixated while deploying an SMB or taking a photo etc is bad.

A rebreather is a classic for taking you places you might not be able to get back from. since you have essentially unlimited gas it seems like you can do anything, and if nothing fails you can. So planning is now limited by the bailout. Wishful or not thinking about bailout can be dangerous.

Someone up thread was quoting 10x more dangerous than OC. I think in fact that is 10x more dangerous than the dives done on OC. Now very aggressive dives are being done CCR rather than OC so you would expect them to turn out worse than a 20m reef bumble on average. The dangers are different to the OC ones. You have time on your side, but inattention will bite badly.

It costs more than you think.

 

[doctormike]

Do TDI Air Dil beforehand buying a unit and see how you like it.

I think that this is good advice, and it's what I did - I trained on a rental unit before buying one. Yes, it's more expensive by the price of the rental (about $600), but as a certified CCR diver you have a MUCH better understanding of the issues and tradeoffs involved between the various units. And if you really don't like it, you don't have to worry about selling your rebreather...