When to start considering CCR training

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Simple, for me, never, as I value my life. There is nothing I want to dive that cannot be done with single, doubles and deco mixes.

I have seen too many inexperienced divers go to CCR before they can even dive well using OC. Some of these have died and I cannot help but thinking that if they had more OC experience, perhaps they may have survived.
 
...it has been a dream of mine to one day get to dive bubble-free further into the freshwater caverns...

If this is really your goal, it sounds like what you would really like to do, at some point, is cave CCR diving. Bravo! It's lots of fun, and very challenging.

Since you say that most of your diving is done in overhead environments, it sounds like the best way for you to get to the goal of cave diving is to start doing some tech training on open circuit 1st. In fact, it would likely be worth it to do cave training on open circuit, THEN jump to CCR.

Why? Because one thing you learn rather quickly while diving a CCR is that they can and do break down. And when they do, you are now an open circuit diver. Of course, if they break down in open water, your bail out plan is much simpler than if you are in an overhead. Since the ante is much higher in a cave than in open water, it would really be to your benefit to be very comfortable on open circuit in a cave, because any time you are on open circuit while on a CCR dive, the poo has already hit the prop, and you better know what you are doing if you plan to survive.

If you were saying you wanted a CCR because you enjoy the concept, and you feel comfortable with the increased task loading, and you wanted to do it in open water, I'd say make the jump whenever you want. Build up some time and comfort with the unit, then check out training to go wherever else you want to go with it.

BUT if you are looking to do overhead environment diving with the CCR, I think it would be much simpler and easier to do it open circuit 1st. The main purpose of tech dive training is NOT to teach you how to dive. Of course, your skill in diving will grow quite a bit by taking the course, but that's not the primary goal...It's to teach you how to solve problems that can and do arise while diving in more challenging environments. You should already have your trim and buoyancy dialed in before starting tech training. That way, you can focus on the skills you will need to stay alive.

I feel that there is enough task loading with doing simple cave diving skills for the 1st time that it is worth learning them in a system you are already comfortable diving in. If you are trying to relearn how to dive by making the jump to CCR, it makes it very hard to also learn how to cave dive at the same time.

If you are willing to step out of the overhead for a while and build some experience on the CCR before moving forward, though, that would be fine. Just please realize that jumping to CCR will require you to focus on learning how to dive the unit, and that will require a step back to a simpler and safer environment to learn in
 
About statistics, you know what they say: there are lies, damned lies and statistics. I have'nt seen reliable numbers that more CCR divers are killed than OC divers to date because of CCR (meaning: the CCR was what killed them). Most of them would have died anyway because of mistakes they made. However, I have seen a bunch of lists made by opponents that try to prove CCR diving is more dangerous :wink:

Furthermore, I don't think the number of dives really matter but the kind of dives (challenging and heavy task loaded) do matter. A challenging dive/training can provide a steeper learning curve than 100 easy dives.

To be honest, I'am not a CCR diver and not sure I ever will be (220 dives right now). I looked into CCR and decided not to pursue this direction because I have yet to master the skill of being in complete control and awareness all of the time even during heavy task load in diffcult circumstances. As far as I can tell that's a prerequisite to safely diving CRR. CCR inherently adds task load what makes it more difficult to master than OC. Being heavily task loaded, the CCR stills demands attention and that's where (some) divers get in trouble.

My advice would be to do some Tech training (Cave or Open Water) to get totally comfortable with heavy task loading scenario's under water and then decide whether to go CCR or not.
 
AJ:
About statistics, you know what they say: there are lies, damned lies and statistics. I have'nt seen reliable numbers that more CCR divers are killed than OC divers to date because of CCR (meaning: the CCR was what killed them). Most of them would have died anyway because of mistakes they made. However, I have seen a bunch of lists made by opponents that try to prove CCR diving is more dangerous :wink:
That's like people claiming that their cave diving isn't any more dangerous than open water recreational diving. You might be able to convince yourself of this, but it doesn't make it true.

x-ray magazine 2013
In 2011, Australian hyperbaric physician Dr Andrew Fock, an accomplished rebreather diver himself, set out to estimate the actual risk of rebreather diving by collecting and analysing data from the DAN, DAN-Asia Pacific, BSAC, Deep Life and Rebreather World databases. “They’re really best guest numbers,” explained Fock, who presented his findings last year at Rebreather Forum 3.0 in Orlando, Florida. “There are errors and incomplete data. We know the number of fatalities but no one knows how many rebreathers are in the field, the number of rebreather divers or how many dives they made.” In other words, we know the number of incidents but not the relevant denominator.

Fock’s conclusions? Rebreather diving may currently be as much as 8-10 times more risky than open circuit diving with a corresponding estimated incident rate of about 4 deaths/100,000 dives compared to a rate of .5 deaths/100,000 dives for scuba overall. Of course, some portion of this risk, is due to the fact that to date rebreathers have been primarily used to conduct deeper and longer “technical” dives. However, with scant data there is no way to quantify this extra risk.
 
You're repeating what I said: there are no reliable statistics on CCR fatality, there are guesses and opinions based on incomplete and unreliable info! I did not say rebreathers are not more dangerous. In fact I stated they require more attention than OC and higher awareness which adds stress during high task load. It just has not ben statistically proven that rebreathers by itself kill more people than OC does. And yes, because rebreathers are often used for more demanding dives, the risk involved in those dives is higher. Not because the use of rebreathers persé, but because of the more dangerous enviroment they are often used in.

My opnion on statistics: take a look at Al Gore's 'inconvenient truth' and Michael Moore's answer to it. Same statistics, different outcome :wink: I'am not trying to convince myself of anything, don't have to, don't want to. If and when I decide to go CCR I will educate myself on the dangers of CCR and decide based on facts, not on statistics, about the inherent dangers and how to mitigate them. I don't believe in statistics, I believe in facts and have been trained professionally to do so. That's the attitude needed to dive CCR and OC safe in my opinion.
 
There are many things that can kill you on a ccr that either don't exist or are much more noticeable with OC. You have to be a lot more meticulous in how you you prepare for a dive and things you do on a dive on a CCR. If you fail to turn on your dive computer before jumping in the water you don't die. People have in fact jumped in the water with their ccr off, and died because the solenoid requires power. If you try to breath on a regulator and the valve is off you know pretty immediately that there is a problem. You can breath just fine on a CCR with the O2 off, until you go hypoxic and die in a few minutes. I know of multiple people who have pulled on a rebreather to go diving that had no scrubber installed, it takes longer to pass out that way then forgetting to turn on your O2, but it's going to be a bad day if you go diving without it (one noticed the unit was too light, the other was rescued by another diver under water). You can have multiple O2 sensors go current limited in under 12 months because of a manufacturing defect and they vote out the one that is trying to tell you that you are about to go into convulsions from O2 Toxicity.
 
TotDoc says it pretty well. Doing cave training as a relatively inexperienced CCR diver is a much steeper learning curve than being an experienced OC cave diver, getting a CCR, building hours in a much less demanding environment, and only then doing a Cave CCR cross over.

We had about 10 years of active cave diving and 5 years or so post Abe Davis before we considered CCR. Then we took a technical CCR course, built about 30 hours in OW, and another 50 hours diving in both open water and at a conservative intermediate cave level (basically where we could bailout and exit with 40 cu ft of gas, while carrying about 3 times that amount) before we completed our full cave cross over and returned to a full cave level of diving. We're still essentially diving in the same areas and depth limits we did at an OC full cave level as we slowly expand our envelope on CCR.

If a diver lacks patience or discipline, poorly self assesses his actual ability, or is inclined to go too far, too fast, then Cave CCR just isn't a good idea.
 
/... You can breath just fine on a CCR with the O2 off, until you go hypoxic and die in a few minutes.
This will start an argument, but "breathe just fine" isn't strictly true.

It'll start a sub argument when I suggest that the training that the high altitude taking that all military and some civilian pilots receive has some relevance to CCR diving.

A very low PPO2 of .10 is equivalent to a barometric altitude of about 20,000 ft. If you experience an O2 failure at altitude you'll have about 10 minutes of useful consciousness, but that's assuming you are at rest. If you suffer rapid decompression at that altitude, that time shrinks to about 5 minutes, and even moderate exercise cuts that in half again to about 2.5 minutes. Using that most conservative figure and applying it to CCR, you've still got some time as the loop PPO2 falls below .16 or so to figure out that something is wrong. Symptoms of rapid onset hypoxia vary a bit from person to person. In my case, I note a feeling of fatigue, and visual impairment including reduced low light sensitivity, and impaired peripheral vision. That's followed fairly quickly by cognitive impairment with an inability to focus and problem solve - which is what leads to inaction that results in a fatality.

They key is to recognize the early stages of hypoxia before you enter the late stage where the cognitive impacts can prevent you from taking appropriate action.

In that regard, I think CCR divers are at a disadvantage by not having exposure to hypoxia in a high altitude chamber where they can experience and recognize their early onset symptoms of hypoxia. It's partially what leads to statements such as "you can breath just fine until you go hypoxic and die in a few minutes", which creates the impression that there are no warning signs.

I prefer Mel Clark's approach of stating "if you feel funny, it means you are probably about to die". Absent training in your responses to hypoxia, a CCR diver is well served to heed that advice and bailout for a couple sanity breaths in the event he or she "feels funny".

You can have multiple O2 sensors go current limited in under 12 months because of a manufacturing defect and they vote out the one that is trying to tell you that you are about to go into convulsions from O2 Toxicity.

That's very true. But that also reflects the need for the CCR diver to fully understand his or her rebreather, both as an overall system and as a collection of sub systems with distinct failure modes. Along with this is the need for a thorough understanding of the cross checks that can be used to detect failures.

Again at the risk of pissing off the non pilots, the training in systems and cross checks to detect failures will be second nature to an instrument rated pilot flying high performance aircraft and like it or not, that approach and the related critical thinking process transfer well to CCR diving.

In the example you describe above, a diluent flush will give you a ball park close to known loop PPO2 based on the O2 percentage of the diluent and the current depth. That derived value can then be compared to the sensor readings to see which of the three, if any, are ball park accurate. I set the dil PPO2 to display on my Petrel so that I can determine the dil PPO2 immediately with no math involved and can compare it directly to the PPO2 reading for each sensor. It tells me which one(s) I need to ignore, and if none of them are accurate, it's telling me I need to bailout.

That should however be CCR 101 level knowledge, so stating it the way you've stated it is perhaps over stating the risk, or it's perhaps a very sad commentary on the state of CCR divers and CCR training
 
I have a good friend who nearly died from hypoxia.

He was fiddling with a piece of grass that got caught in his gear and woke up in a hospital. No warnings no nothing.

Another good friend did die from hyperoxia.

Both were from boneheaded mistakes. The kind that procedures and checks are supposed to prevent. Diver error. It's always diver error. But you have a lot more chances to make an error (and a fatal error at that) with a more complex machine.

It's no joke and again I don't see a good reason to add those variables to your diving unless you can't reasonably do the dive in open circuit.
 
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It's no joke and again I don't see a good reason to add those variables to your diving unless you can't reasonably do the dive in open circuit.

I don't mean to minimize the risks. I am VERY aware of the additional issues related to CCR diving. But you bring up an interesting question. Let me hear your thoughts on this. I respect your insight and experience, I'm not trollingl

If - in general terms - you are saying that you shouldn't do X activity if the risk is greater than Y, then what is the difference between choosing to do, for fun, a dive that raises your risk to Y because of the addition of CCR issues and a dive that raises your risk to Y because of the intrinsic nature of the dive.

I mean, why would you chastise one diver for doing a recreational dive on CCR, but not chastise another diver for doing a pinnacle dive with all of the training and experience? The fact that a diver simply WANTS to go to 700 FFW in a cave is a choice to do an activity for fun that doesn't need to be done and involves a tremendous amount of elective risk. These aren't military missions. This isn't commercial diving.

I actually really like CCR diving, and I don't plan on diving to hypoxic trimix depths ever. I find it fascinating, I like the gear, I like reading about it and I like talking about it. I like diving my CCR. It has made me excited about diving again in a new way. I'm looking forward to getting better at it and continuing my training. But I hear you and I guess my question is - should I give it up and go back to OC?
 
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