Looking for a bcd without high side''chaps''?

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This is another one of those myths that seems to periodically pop up on SB. A back-inflate BCD may create a feeling of pitching you forward, if you are overweighted, OR your weight is improperly distributed. If you are properly weighted, and that weight is properly distributed for optimal trim, you will not have that sensation.I would hope that would not be the case. But, the reaction of others will usually depend on their extent of knowledge, and breadth of experience. So, if members of your dive club do have some reasonable breadth of knowledge and diving experience, they are more likely to commend you on your choice. In contrast, if they look at you like you have sprouted a second head then you have a good indication that you are diving with relatively inexperienced, or very narrow-minded, club mates, and you should probably consider anything they say about diving and equipment in the context of that source.

I simply don't understand how you can be properly weighted for a horizontal plane underwater, but bob like a vertical cork at the surface without switching your weights. Draw a diagram. Don't just say, "It takes experience, and if you don't know you're an idiot." Help your fellow divers. To me, it's physics. I am asking someone to explain how a diver is not pitched forward with a big bubble on their back. If they are wearing ankle weights, how does this not throw off their horizontal plane when submerged?
 
Over inflating the wing is only going to try to pitch you forward, so you don’t do it.
 
I simply don't understand how you can be properly weighted for a horizontal plane underwater, but bob like a vertical cork at the surface without switching your weights. Draw a diagram.
IF you have on moderately buoyant wetsuit legs, then bringing your knees up in front of you, as if you were sitting and not standing, will put more buoyant force far out in front of your body to counteract some overzealous inflation of the wing. When I started with BP/W I had much of my lead on the front of my body and had some issues, it was also before I learned the knees up approach. Now my lead is more evenly distributed front and back (with 4lb extra lead on the steel plate) and I have not noticed any issues of tipping forward on the surface.
 
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They shouldn't. Many dive centers/clubs in my area train people with backplate and wing from the beginning. Mostly because they think it is easier to learn correct trim and balance this way.
deepstop.de has a nice Apex regulator/Halcyon BP/W single set offer at the moment. Also you could consider X-deep Zeos and Ghost BP/W systems before deciding.

I am newbie as well. First I thought I would buy a jacket. Then read some internet and change my mind to BP/W. When I visit local dive club, the guys told me, that I shouldnt bother with one cylinder. I will (eventually) need two anyway. So, they practically approve my bp/w decision, and also "force" me to look to the second 1st stage to buy :)
 
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I was going by what my recent instructor said about his backplate wing.
I've used a BP/W for my last 75 or so dives. Before that, I used a back inflate vest for a handful of dives. I've never had any issues with being pitched forward. And as a bonus, I float higher on my wing than in a jacket when I lean on my back, which is my favorite position on the surface.

I don't know about you, but when I'm propagating hearsay, I try to make it perfectly clear that it's just hearsay and that it should be taken with some serious pinches of salt.
 
The purpose of a back inflate or a wing is to assist in keeping a plane (horizontal) profile in the water. If the diver is weighted such that he/she is upright when on the surface, then the weighting won't work well when diving. It seems like simple physics to me. What am I missing?
You are asking a very good question. And, approaching the issue from the perspective of physics is 'spot on'. I really wish more divers would approach their buoyancy and weighting in that manner. I am not sure that you are 'missing' something, as much as possibly needing to give a bit more consideration to the effect of weighting, both total amount AND distribution, and the positioning of the external buoyancy and weight relative to the diver's physiologic center of lift (the thorax). I am working on some pictures, because this topic is not in frequently the subject of SB discussion, but that is taking time. So, some 'textual' thoughts in the interim:

1) I might suggest an alternate view to the statement that weighting which leaves the diver upright on the surface 'won't work well when diving'. I think it can work. I have several jacket BCDs. I use them in the pool for teaching, as much because they are inexpensive yet functional, as because of any buoyancy characteristics. I can dive in good horizontal trim using those jackets, BUT that is primarily because I am properly weighted, I need to use VERY little air, if any, in the bladder underwater, and I have very little weight on my waist, pulling my legs down (see additional comment on that, below). But, the more over-weighted I am, and the more air I have to use in that jacket BCD, the less stable I become. So, the problem is primarily weighting - total amount and distribution - not the configuration of the badder.

2) To the extent possible, I prefer (and recommend to others) that both external buoyancy AND added weight be placed as closely adjacent to the physiologic center of lift as possible - the lungs, i.e. adjacent to the thorax. That has not always been the case with weight belts and BCDs, be they jacket or back-inflate, although that situation has fortunately changed to some extent over the years. Traditionally, divers have used weight belts, which place the weight well below the diver's physiologic center of lift ( which should be the primary lift during diving if the diver is properly weighted) and below the external center of lift (BCD), when horizontal. That alignment - weight below (i.e. more toward the feet) the center of lift when horizontal underwater - has a tendency to pull the legs of most divers down, because the lift in the BCD and lungs is seeking to align itself vertically with the weight. So, divers end up in a foot-low configuration, that I refer to as being a '45'er'. That produces a host of problems, which are the subject of another discussion. And, over time, since many divers were using jacket BCDs, and many divers were also over-weighted, jackets BCDs developed a bad rap, even though the problem was primarily one of weighting and weight distribution as much as bladder configuration. One other factor to keep in mind:- many divers using jacket BCDs also developed the habit of floating at the surface with much of their upper body above the water, even though it was unnecessary, simply because that where the bladder of their jacket BCD positioned them when it was (over)inflated. That bladder, when fully inflated, wanted to be on the surface, and that bladder was positioned closer to the diver's waist than their neck, so divers got used to sitting high in the water, when on the surface. In contrast, look at some episodes of the classic TV series, Sea Hunt, where you see Mike Nelson (who didn't use a buoyancy compensation device) floating at the surface. His head is above water, and that's about all. And, that's all that is needed. You really DO NOT want to 'bob like a cork' at the surface.

3) So, along come back-inflate BCDs, which move the center of external lift into closer alignment with the diver's physiologic center of lift. That's good, and divers like it, and it does facilitate horizontal trim to an extent, although probably not quite as much as is often asserted. But, it is also more streamlined, and there is less of a tendency to roll, which jackets may create simply because of of the design and placement of the air bladder. Notably, at the same time that manufacturers were moving in the direction of back-inflate BCDs, they ALSO were moving toward weight integration. And, the majority of back-inflate, weight-integrated BCDs put those weights a) below the center of lift, but NOT as much below as weight belts did (so there really was some improvement in horizontal trim), and b) forward of the diver's vertical midline, when viewed from the side. Now you have a configuration which works reasonably well underwater, but has the potential for problems on the surface. The external center of lift is behind the diver (it is, after all, a 'back-inflate' BCD), the center of weight / gravity is in front of the diver (forward of the vertical midline), and those two entities seek vertical alignment - lift directly over weight. That is obviously not a problem underwater. In fact it is ideal. But, at the surface, it may be an issue. If there is little / no weight (which should be the case), and the diver doesn't (need to) use much air in the BCD to float comfortably (head only above water) on the surface, there isn't a problem. If the diver is a bit overweighted, that weight is in front of their vertical midline and it pulls their front down just a bit toward the water. The diver - who wants to float too high on the surface anyway - doesn't like that, and adds air to the BCD. All that does is make the problem worse, as the weight, and now added lift behind the diver, seek vertical alignment. So, back-inflate BCDs CAN create a sensation of the diver's face being pushed toward the water, WHEN the diver is over-weighted, and that weight is positioned forward of the diver's vertical midline, viewed from the side. Fortunately, over time, equipment manufacturers realized that there was a problem and they started equipping BCDs with trim pockets which moved weight to a) the back side of the diver's vertical midline, and b) a position more closely adjacent to the diver's center of lift (thorax, and wing)

4) Finally, let's add in another element - the metal (negatively buoyant) backplate. What a wonderful addition to the diver's options for weighting! The plate sits adjacent to the diver's physiologic center of lift AND to the the external center of lift - the wing on the back. In fact, it is sandwiched between the two, so the surface flotation characteristics are better balanced. The plate also allows the diver to take weight off of the waist (weight belt) and/or away from the weight-integration pockets (forward of the vertical midline so a)horizontal trim is facilitated, b) the 'face down' tendency of fabric back-inflate BCDs is nicely offset.

This is an admittedly simplistic description - it doesn't consider the effect of cylinders (e.g. steel vs AL), buoyancy of fins, etc. But, it gets at the heart of the issue in many ways. And, not everyone's buoyancy characteristics are the same. Some people are 'leg heavy' (negatively buoyant lower body), some are 'leg floaty', etc. Each diver really needs to work out their optimal weighting, and their optimal weight distribution. One of the reasons that I like, and recommend, metal backplates is that they address one important component of weighting - distribution of weight toward alignment with the diver's physiologic center of lift, and external center of lift. I know what works for me, and am happy to outline why (all of the 'stuff', above). But, each diver should figure out what's best for them. I do like to see accurate information disseminated whenever possible.
 
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Traditionally, divers have used weight belts, which place the weight well below the diver's physiologic center of lift ( which should be the primary lift during diving if the diver is properly weighted) and below the external center of lift (BCD), when horizontal. That alignment - weight below (i.e. more toward the feet) the center of lift when horizontal underwater - has a tendency to pull the legs of most divers down, because the lift in the BCD and lungs is seeking to align itself vertically with the weight. So, divers end up in a foot-low configuration
IME that situation can be rather easily amended if the diver is in a drysuit. When I'm in a drysuit, my trim doesn't depend only on my weight distribution, but also on the distribution of my suit bubble. So if I'm foot-heavy, I deliberately roll a little forward, allowing some air to migrate from my torso to my legs. Not much, just enough to compensate for any imbalance in my weight distribution. Same thing if my feet are a bit on the light side: drop my legs, raise my torso and move a little bit of my suit bubble from my legs to my torso. With a little bit of practice, it becomes automatic.
 
I think it might be useful to correct some misimpressions and misinformation, if the OP is to make an informed decision. I don't have a particular investment in what BCD he ultimately selects, but it would seem that misstatements should not interfere with the selection process.

Exactly.

ummm...not really. Unless you buy a quick release harness. A bp/w functions to control the tank movement by bolting the tank clamps to the plate and having a tight harness so you have better control of the whole rig.

It's personal opinion but my 2 friends who dive bp/w struggle more to get theirs on than I do with my 2 clip/straps and Velcro front fasteners.

You don't need any of that stuff to don or doff a BP/W rig quickly. You just need it to be adjusted properly.

I have been diving a BP/W since immediately after I finished my OW certification. I have always used standard Hogarthian rigging - i.e. one continuous length of webbing that forms the entire harness. No quick releases. No clips or Velcro.

When I first started with it, it was a bit awkward to get on and off. I kept working with it and tweaking it based on advice from people here. I eventually figured out that I had the shoulder straps a lot tighter than they needed to be. That whole "insert a fist through the shoulder strap" thing resulted in my shoulder straps being waay too tight.

Now, I'd bet you a dollar, I can get completely out of my BP/W rig, in the water, faster than anyone using a normal integrated BCD. I have one waist belt buckle to pop and then one side of the waist strap to pull out and I'm done. I like to position my waist buckle so that it does not go through the crotch strap loop. So, when I pull the other side of the waist belt out of the buckle it also comes out of the crotch strap loop and everything is undone, with only the shoulder straps left attaching the BP to my body. Shrug a shoulder and turn and I'm out. Meanwhile, a "normal" integrated BCD has a sternum strap to unfasten, a waist buckle to unfasten, a cummerbund to open, and then most people want to loosen the shoulder straps themselves before they try to get out.

A steel plate is more like 6 pounds and not 12. But that is only half the story. A jacket BC also has some weight. So you really only have to consider the difference between the two. When considering packing also keep in mind that a backplate packs way smaller than the majority of BCs out there.

I have weighed my single tank rig with a luggage scale. A SS plate, with Hogarthian harness, 4 D-rings (1 on each shoulder and 1 on each side of the wait belt), 3 tri-slides with a piece of bungee in each, a HOG 23 # wing, 2 ScubaPro-style quick release tank straps, a soft 2" webbing crotch strap (with 2 x steel D-rings), a glass-filled nylon buckle (not steel), an Eezycut in a pouch, and a pair of trauma shears in a pouch - no trim weight pockets or any other kind of pockets - comes out to 10.7 pounds. The SS plate in that rig weighs 5.2# by itself.

I simply don't understand how you can be properly weighted for a horizontal plane underwater, but bob like a vertical cork at the surface without switching your weights. Draw a diagram. Don't just say, "It takes experience, and if you don't know you're an idiot." Help your fellow divers. To me, it's physics. I am asking someone to explain how a diver is not pitched forward with a big bubble on their back. If they are wearing ankle weights, how does this not throw off their horizontal plane when submerged?

Your body is roughly neutral. With a wetsuit, probably positively buoyant by a bit.

Your tank is negative at the start of the dive. At the end of a dive, if it's an AL80, it might be as much as 4# or so positive. If it's a steel tank, it's almost certainly still negative.

With a BP/W, when you're on the surface, the BP and the wing are in roughly the same vertical plane. So, the plate itself is being directly countered by the wing, giving you no push forward or backward.

So, whether you are pushed forward or back depends on how the weight in front and back balances.

The higher you come out of the water, the more of your head and body are out, making you more front heavy. The tank will also be higher, but it's weight is very low compared to the weight of your head and body. So, if you try to get really high, you will also be more likely to tip forward.

Where you position any extra weight you're carrying also influences this. If you put 10 # of lead in waist pockets on your BCD, that weight will be in front of the wing and tend to tip you forward. If you put lead in trim pockets on the back of your BCD or in trim pockets on your tank strap, that will tend to pull you backwards. But, none of that lead is going to be up out of the water when you are floating on the surface. So, the overwhelming amount of weight that tips the balance is going to be the weight of your head and body. The higher you try to float, the more it will tip you forward.

Thus, generally, if you position your weights properly, you can set yourself up to be able to be vertical fairly easily. But, if you put 10# of lead on a belt and position it in front of your belly button, probably not so much.

As you get more comfortable with diving in general, you will probably get more comfortable floating lower in the water, too. When you float lower, it's much easier to stay perfectly vertical. Using steel tanks also helps. An empty AL80 will be 4.4# positive. If you have that on your back, and weight on your front, and you're trying to hold your head completely up and clear of the water, it's going to be really hard.

As many people have already posted, if you lean yourself back anywhere from a little bit to a decent angle (depending on how you have distributed the weight you're carrying), you can balance yourself over the center of lift and hold steady with no real effort. Laying back on top of your BCD makes it really easy, but then your head is not actually up high like you might want if, for example, you are looking around for your boat.
 
IME that situation can be rather easily amended if the diver is in a drysuit.
I love it! :) And, I do agree, diving with a drysuit gives me some great / additional options for buoyancy and trim management. And, while I can't say that I live in a location that is 'close to a Hell which occasionally freezes over', I do live in an area where inland water temperatures in the winter are pretty d****d cold, and I love my drysuit.

But, unlike you and me, there are quite a few divers who never get to the point of making what I still call 'the best single investment I ever made in a piece of dive equipment', and buying a dry suit.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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