Diver Training, Has It Really Been Watered Down???

[JamesBon92007]

. Master diver should potentially be renamed as Advanced as that shows that a level of training has been undertaken. If there was to be a Master diver certificate, that should be one that signifies a level of skill/knowledge that would be deserving of the title.

One of the issues with it in its current guise is that boats/trips often call for "AOW" as a basic bar however someone can get it with a total of 9 dives and still barely able to maintain control (I can vouch for this as I almost ended .
I.

I think the whole "Master Diver" thing is absurd. To me it should signify that someone is thoroughly trained, experienced, and competent in virtually all aspects of scuba diving. In reality to me it simply means that someone probably has more experience than a typical AOW diver but one person may have hundreds of dives, or even thousands, in clear, calm, warm water and be less "experienced" than another diver who has less than a hundred dives but they were in a dry suit in very cold, surgy water with low visibility, breathing Nitrox, and going beyond the NDLs. My guess is that there are many who hold an AOW card or even a Master card that could not even make it through the surf for a California beach dive on a typical day. and yet there may be many who are only OW certified who are very experienced and capable of doing the same thing. Consequently, the certification level that I would like to see and hold is G.O.D. That, of course, stands for Grumpy Old Diver and it's one that I'm sure I qualify for! I can get through the surf, do a drift dive in the Caribbean, and chase kids off my lawn!

 

[TMHeimer]

I don't disagree with either of the last 2 posts, but you have to be realistic as well. You could be a "Master" diver in the Caribbean but not in Maine. Though tropical diving is "easier" for obvious reasons, it has some other things to worry about such as venomous creatures. I'd rather take OW with an instructor who has 1,000 quarry dives if that is where I'll be training, as opposed to one who has 100 but has been around the world. Then research and get an orientation if I want to shore dive in California (or New Jersey--big waves there too. I read about procedures for entering and exiting in those conditions and had no problems on my first dives there--of course I had been body surfing the ocean since a kid).
As pointed out many times, AOW is required by some ops for deeper dives for insurance, lawsuits, etc. reasons. I was one of those who got AOW after (and including in the course) dive # 15. I would be an idiot to think I was the least bit advanced. Same if I considered myself a "Master" when getting the PADI MSD at dive # 50 compared to the Master Diver I hear of in the US Navy.
There was years ago a lengthy thread on the definition of "Master"--in anything not just diving.

I consider myself truly a Master at clarinet playing, having started in 1963 and professional since 1973. Yet, there are countless thousands of players who are better than me.

 

[JamesBon92007]

I consider myself truly a Master at clarinet playing, having started in 1963 and professional since 1973. Yet, there are countless thousands of players who are better than me.

The only thing I can think of that I might have been a true master of was the rope climb while in high school. It was a 25 foot rope and I can't find a recent record for it but the 8 meter (26.25 feet) record (according to Wikipedia) is 4.87 seconds. I did the 25' in 4.0. That might sound good but I knew a guy who did it in 3.9. We didn't think we were all that hot because we knew the world record was 2.9. It turns out that was for the 20 foot rope (which now appears to stand at 2.8). I found the 1947 record and it was 4.2 for the 25' rope. Since they removed it from the Olympics nobody pays much attention to it any more. I owe it all to practicing while wearing my weight belt

I'm also very good at fixing lawn mowers that have been abandoned on the curb

As for scuba diving, I have a Master Scuba Diver card and I've never worn a dry suit, breathed Nitrox, used a computer, done a decompression dive, gone past 100 feet, and a lot of other things.

 

[shurite7]

After a lot of thinking and contemplating after reading the posts, and viewing finger pointing I've come to realize there is only one constant in the dive courses, much like other courses in various topics, including college and trade schools, is change. Many people do not like change. However, change is necessary and is going to happen whether one likes it or not. Some people will always resist new forms of learning, such as e-Learning.

To answer the original post I don't see a complete dumbing down of academics portion of open water courses; I started diving in the 90s. What I do see is a student who really wants to learn the material (minority) versus one who wants to know just the bare minimum (not quite the majority, but very high up there), if that. I've also seen the dive operators, especially if there is competition, doing what they feel is necessary to remain competitive to stay in business such as shortening the courses, yet remain within standards. Sadly, most consumers are not going to chose the course that takes more time, requires a higher degree of knowledge retainment, as well as taking the time, however long that needs, to learn and master the skills in the pool.

In my view there are three people to blame for any sort of dumbing down: the student who doesn't want to take the time to truly learn and comprehend the academic materials. The others are the instructors (all across the world) who just wants to get the job done, or one who wants to add more, but is unable to due to various reasons, such as economics. Finally, the dive operator, who has to struggle to stay in business and remain successful monetarily.

 

[Aviyes]

I agree completely on the AOW as a newer diver. It was useless outside of going on some more dives with an instructor nearby. I did it solely to check the box for being able to go on trips/boats that required it.

 

[TMHeimer]

I agree completely on the AOW as a newer diver. It was useless outside of going on some more dives with an instructor nearby. I did it solely to check the box for being able to go on trips/boats that required it.

I mostly agree, though I did it so shortly after OW that I had no time to be refused a deep dive based on no AOW. Mine went like this:
1. NAV dive--Good compass work and a couple of patterns if I recall correctly.
2. Deep dive--at 63' useless.
3. S & R-- OK and I found the thing using the "U" pattern. I have found stuff I've lost 3 or 4 times but generally just looked in the area--one time I did a "Zig Zag" pattern. That's not even in the Rescue manual....
4. Nitrox Adventure dive. Took the whole course shortly after at a different shop and paid the full price anyway.
5. PPB--OK, but my buoyancy was pretty good to begin with.
-------------------So that's 1 1/2 out of 5.

 

[Diver0001]

I consider myself truly a Master at clarinet playing, having started in 1963 and professional since 1973. Yet, there are countless thousands of players who are better than me.

This is actually exactly how I feel about scuba diving. I've been diving for more than 30 years (considerably less than your career in music). For a portion of that time I've been involved in training newbie divers and/or could, for all intents and purposes, be described as an "advanced" diver.

But that's not how I feel about it and I would never use the moniker "advanced" to describe myself. I *think* I was fairly athletic when I started with this sport (I was 18). I trained kung-fu for 10 years when I was younger and I engaged in long distance running for a period of time after that.... but I am no longer young nor do I feel justified in describing myself as "athletic", which I think is a prerequisite to describing oneself as "advanced" in any sport.

Just like everything else in life the one thing I've learned from all of my "delusions of grandeur" is that I am in no way, shape or form, special. Anything I can do someone else can do better, including scuba diving. If anything, I excel at being "mediocre". Given that I have an exceptionally high IQ I'm sure my career choices are a severe disappointment to my parents who certainly thought I would achieve "greatness" in *something* and are still hoping that it will happen, and will probably die feeling deeply disappointed in me.....

But ok.... that's a post for another time. I don't know where this post was going.....

R..

 

[JamesBon92007]

Given that I have an exceptionally high IQ I'm sure my career choices are a severe disappointment to my parents who certainly thought I would achieve "greatness" in *something* and are still hoping that it will happen, and will probably die feeling deeply disappointed in me.....
..

Like I said earlier, I use my exceptionally high IQ to repair abandoned lawnmowers

Is it time to start a new category called "Aspie Divers?"

 

[JamesBon92007]

I consider myself truly a Master at clarinet playing, having started in 1963 and professional since 1973. Yet, there are countless thousands of players who are better than me.

BTW, I have great respect for those who can play an instrument really well, especially the clarinet.

One that I find amusing is when people argue that one great violinist (or whatever) is better than some other great violinist--they are still both great violinists, even if one is slightly "better" than the other.

 

[Scuba Scott]

The main problem with "Advanced" is that people are reading the tile wrong. It is "Advanced Open Water".
The way I read it is an Open Water diver who has advanced their skills through additional training and experience. They are still an "Open Water" diver but more advanced than "just" an Open Water diver.
It is easy to say someone isn't "advanced", whatever that means, but hard to argue an Advanced Open Water Diver doesn't have a little more training and experience than a plain old Open Water Diver.
I have found the AOW course can be incredibly valuable and is an opportunity for new divers to really find their groove and finally "get it".
Of course the instructor has to make it that way.
You can learn A LOT from the deep and navigation dives if it isn't just an exercise in checking off the minimum requirements. A great third dive is Night. There is so much more to learn than just using a flashlight. Some students prefer Search & Recovery and there is a lot to be learned here as well.

AOW is an awesome course that should produce divers with much more skill and confidence than they had as OW. If it doesn't then the students are not being challenged.