Instructors: teaching neutrally buoyant

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FWIW, my goal is a student who is completely comfortable in the water with great trim and buoyancy control. They should be able to go into a cavern course and have the instructor pleased with their skills. I do recommend that they get a lot of dives in and get advanced before they do, but they should have the skills to do it.
Is this just a "confidence" skill?
I've had to do it once when I got tangled in fishing line on a wreck.
 
Can I ask a dumb question please...

Why would one remove one’s rig underwater? On the surface makes a lot of practical sense especially if climbing onto a boat, but not underwater when there’s a big risk of dropping it and a rapid ascent.

Is this just a "confidence" skill?
I guess you'd have to be entangled with something somehow mid-water.
Of course I have donned the unit a few times in water. Also took it off once to be able to climb out on some rocks in surf. But haven't yet found a need to do both together.
 
Why would one remove one’s rig underwater?

1. Entanglement
2. To make weight adjustments on your own
3. If you do it in your instructor examination, your fellow examinees may have a moment of panic
4. If you do it at 60 feet, the expressions on other divers' faces are priceless

Anyway, that's my current list... I've yet to be entangled, but I've done it for 2 through 4.
 
Personally, I find that teaching this skill is one of the easiest. Hover vertically and everything's the same. I find it easier than kneeling. The BCD doesn't change attitude so there's no change in buoyancy. I think doing this vertically is safer in open water. It's easier to manage in my experience.

I do not agree. The diver fully equipped is NB. This does not mean that the BCD + tank + reg is NB and the diver + thermal protection + weights is NB. The sum of the parts is NB not the parts separated.
Doing the skill of BCD removal at mid water is harder than being negative kneeling in the bottom of the pool or in a sand patch in the bottom.
Maybe for you it is, you lucky diver. Not what I've seen in the classes.
 
Can I ask a dumb question please...

Why would one remove one’s rig underwater? On the surface makes a lot of practical sense especially if climbing onto a boat, but not underwater when there’s a big risk of dropping it and a rapid ascent.

Is this just a "confidence" skill?

When I lived in the islands and wasn't guiding I would descend to around 60-70 feet, remove my gear, place it in front of me and hover (scuba unit and me) about five feet off the bottom. It was a good way of getting my back to relax after injuring it.

We also did staff dives where we swam through very narrow swim throughs. In order to make it through we had to take off our scuba gear.
 
I do not agree. The diver fully equipped is NB. This does not mean that the BCD + tank + reg is NB and the diver + thermal protection + weights is NB. The sum of the parts is NB not the parts separated.
Doing the skill of BCD removal at mid water is harder than being negative kneeling in the bottom of the pool or in a sand patch in the bottom.
Maybe for you it is, you lucky diver. Not what I've seen in the classes.
Makes sense to me.
 
The problem is the rule of primacy. If I learned how to clear my mask while kneeling, and I'm having difficulty with it, I'm going to return to the way I first learned it. I saw this in the Keys all the time. You would see divers stop and kneel on the reef in order to clear their mask. When you teach skills while kneeling you're introducing them to a horrible bad habit. Many never grow out of it.

When you teach all the skills on the knees, the student really has to learn it twice. Many of the skills are markedly different while vertical than when horizontal. Sometimes you don't even notice the difference, but it confuses the hell out of the student. I had been teaching all horizontal for a while when someone asked me how I "did" it. The question floored me. My response was in effect: "don't effin kneel". But over the years, I really see the differences between the two.

Finally, it's a matter of comfort. Every minute you have your student practicing trim and neutral is less effort you'll have to exert managing them. It seemed that almost every class had a "bolter". You know, that one student who panics and tries to bolt to the surface? Here's a clue: they're not comfortable. They're not comfortable because they're not in control. They're not in control because, in many classes, neutral buoyancy is the last skill introduced in the pool. Since I eliminated kneeling, I haven't had a single bolter. My class is under complete control.

I have not had a student who couldn't hover on the first day. Most can do it after the first hour.I take two three//four hour sessions to train a diver to the point I'll trust them in OW. It doesn't take magic. It doesn't take being a superior instructor. It simply takes a commitment to do it.
Yes. I was amazed when you told me the story a while back about the woman who had over 1,000 dives that you saw search for a sandy spot to kneel and clear her mask. Another instructor also said he saw this happen often. What ball park % would you say out of new divers (or not so new) do this?
When I started diving I cleared my mask while swimming-- no thought at all to kneel, that's just a lot of extra work.
 
When you teach all the skills on the knees, the student really has to learn it twice.
For the PADI article, I had to negotiate with PADI headquarters over the final draft. They wanted to include the option of teaching skills for the first time on the knees but then transitioning. There is a specific sentence in there that says in so many words that if skills are introduced on the knees, they need to be taught again while neutral and in horizontal trim. The wording of that sentence came 100% from PADI.
 
Can I ask a dumb question please... Why would one remove one’s rig underwater? On the surface makes a lot of practical sense especially if climbing onto a boat, but not underwater when there’s a big risk of dropping it and a rapid ascent. Is this just a "confidence" skill?

Many reasons. I had to remove my rig as was caught up in a fishing net on a wreck dive at night. A tank can slip out of a belt and have to be put back.

My BSAC instructor would have us remove our mask and blind fold us and have us remove our gear then put it back on. We did this in open water in the ocean not in a pool.

You had to be careful not to lose your gear and let it float away.

SHES GONNA DIE.jpg
 
Interesting. Had forgotten that some people wear weightbelts (as per the picture above). I guess that having a weightbelt and aluminium tank makes the rig more neutral.

Doing that stunt in cold water with a drysuit and twinset** would be exceedingly dangerous and foolhardy. You'd have several kg (lb x 2) buoyancy in the drysuit, with several kg/lb of negative buoyancy on the kit. That strain would mean you wouldn't be looking like the photo above.

In summary, it's primarily a recreational and warm-water thing.


** Typical example of a steel 12 litre twinset, stainless backplate, wing, 5kg of V weights, one or two big batteries (lighting & suit heater). Drysuit would have sufficient undersuit for the temperature and duration of the dive; drygloves. Definitely no ditchable weight (which is dangerous) so under the crotch strap if used in winter.
 

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