detroit diver
Contributor
- Messages
- 3,410
- Reaction score
- 13
It doesn't belong in this thread, but put a hood on if it's a concern.
Halcyon Prouduction, DIR, and ironic facts of life
- Thread starter Jarrod
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
Genesis,
I honestly feel that you are being unfair with us but, as I said, appreciate your perspective. However, you represented to the group that it would be an "understatement" to say that I (jarrod) was hostile. Upon being pushed, you back down to Charlie who I am nearly certain did not actually hang up on you. I seem to remember that he told me that he was cut off in mid sentence and that either you hung up or that our new welder (so that we can make all those overseas goods<G>) had caused a problem with the phone (which it did on many occasions for several weeks until we could get it sorted out). I do not expect you to believe this "dog ate my homework" sounding excuse but, either way you must admit that I was not personally hostile to you.
Yes, I was reluctant to take your faxes. You called me out of the blue and aggressively at a go at me. I tried to be cordial but did not know anything about you or your cause. I also did not know what was entailed in having our fax machine (which we rely upon for business) clogged with an event that you might have inflamed without any voice to give people a larger picture. I ultimately agreed (still not sure quite to what I was agreeing) to receive the faxes because I am sympathetic to individual opinion and to our customers at large.
Yes, I am ultimately accountable for all that happens at any company which I direct. This is similar to blaming others for the actions of a spouse, friend, or child. In general, I agree but assert to the oversimplification and resulting confusion it represents. I have many good employees (for which I am very grateful). They (as do I) do the best they can; sometimes we all make mistakes and then do our best to make amends when our error has been made clear.
I believe you are sincere and doing what you think is right. My personal take is that your opinion is colored by your lack of experience in this industry; you might easily say the reverse about me. In the end, I do not believe that I could please you. I hope you can find what you seek somewhere. I do not bear you any ill will despite these issues. I would only ask that you make a bit more effort to represent the facts as objectively as possible.
Sincerely,
Jarrod
I honestly feel that you are being unfair with us but, as I said, appreciate your perspective. However, you represented to the group that it would be an "understatement" to say that I (jarrod) was hostile. Upon being pushed, you back down to Charlie who I am nearly certain did not actually hang up on you. I seem to remember that he told me that he was cut off in mid sentence and that either you hung up or that our new welder (so that we can make all those overseas goods<G>) had caused a problem with the phone (which it did on many occasions for several weeks until we could get it sorted out). I do not expect you to believe this "dog ate my homework" sounding excuse but, either way you must admit that I was not personally hostile to you.
Yes, I was reluctant to take your faxes. You called me out of the blue and aggressively at a go at me. I tried to be cordial but did not know anything about you or your cause. I also did not know what was entailed in having our fax machine (which we rely upon for business) clogged with an event that you might have inflamed without any voice to give people a larger picture. I ultimately agreed (still not sure quite to what I was agreeing) to receive the faxes because I am sympathetic to individual opinion and to our customers at large.
Yes, I am ultimately accountable for all that happens at any company which I direct. This is similar to blaming others for the actions of a spouse, friend, or child. In general, I agree but assert to the oversimplification and resulting confusion it represents. I have many good employees (for which I am very grateful). They (as do I) do the best they can; sometimes we all make mistakes and then do our best to make amends when our error has been made clear.
I believe you are sincere and doing what you think is right. My personal take is that your opinion is colored by your lack of experience in this industry; you might easily say the reverse about me. In the end, I do not believe that I could please you. I hope you can find what you seek somewhere. I do not bear you any ill will despite these issues. I would only ask that you make a bit more effort to represent the facts as objectively as possible.
Sincerely,
Jarrod
I really do want to thank all of you for your perspectives. I find some of this extremely useful toward improving our offerings as a company. I am appalled by the service I get from nearly every company with which I interact. I can speak personally to how surprisingly difficult it is to manage some of the many issues you all bring to the forefront, particularly regarding service and distribution. Ironically I have found that, very often the more simplistic something appears on the outside the greater the likelihood that it is much more complex. I simply can't get involved (at least right now) in the sort of back and forth that surrounds some of these issues. Some debates are exceedingly difficult by email, particularly when there are so many moving parts and such a great degree of history, personality, and human variability (ie subjective evaluation). I only have time for one post on this issue as things are closing around me dreadfully; we have a lot to do before the show here in Australia. I apologize in advance for the impending disappearance. I will get a couple things I drafted about DIR in general out to you in the next couple days.
Let me generalize the pricing issue (which is in some ways also a customer service issue) by saying that manufacturers with a distribution chain gain no personal financial benefit from the retail sales price. In other words they make the same money regardless of the sale price. Furthermore, they sacrifice a great portion of the profit, very often making less than each of the major parts of their distribution chain. Please also consider that it is in a manufacturer's best interest (more so than anyone) to care about the service associated with their product. Other components of the distribution chain almost always have several, if not a great many products to sell. Only the manufacturer is solely invested in a given brand and the experience of the customer (from start to finish). Unfortunately a great deal of the experience is beyond the direct control of the manufacturer; there are many variables accounting for what makes a solid distribution outlet. Savvy business people are sometimes not the best at customer service while some of the warmest people do not have the requisite knowledge and/or funding. Simply put, there are a breath-taking range of variables in this process. This is true for things as uncontrollable as people having a bad day (customer, dealer, distributor etc) and equally true for things seemingly more in their control such as how they are represented in a particular dive shop.
So, take as an example X person who had a bad experience and reports it to the manufacturer. Who is having the bad day, so to speak? Should you immediately pull the account based upon one ( or two or three?) complaints from a necessarily subjective opinion (there is no way to be truly objective- maybe ever and certainly not in this situation)? Therefore, if a manufacturer is going to suffer the many difficulties associated with a conventional distribution chain then they do it with the full realization of its many complications; they try their best to sort out who is actually making good on the intent- ie wider availability and better service to the customer. Price is the easiest means over which to compete and, therefore, the least capable and least service-oriented shops (usually working out of a second rate facility with low expense) cut throat the price. Eventually the value of a brand reaches a certain point and the shops with good service and nice, supportive (but expensive) infrastructures can't survive selling the product. Then the manufacturer loses all the best shops who are forced to go elsewhere to maintain their infrastructure; they are then left with shops that do not have the experience to understand what it takes to run their business (many go out of business and only hurt the industry on their downfall). Now we come back to the manufacturer who has lost his good customer support facilities and is still making the same, reduced profit necessitated by the distribution chain. However, they no longer receive the benefit. Of course there are counter examples but most (if not all) represent a product with much less complexity that is much less service intensive (computers, books, simple products etc). Scuba diving has a complex array of individual, legal, and self- regulatory influences toward the training of divers and selling of equipment.
If any company was in a better position to sell direct it was Halcyon. We had a solid Internet presence and much of our business was really customer driven ie many customers going to the dealer and saying I want you to carry this product. I am certain that we would have made more money, given our brand recognition, had we sold direct. However, I feel this would have been to the detriment of DIR and ultimately to the industry. This is because despite the seemingly exclusionary nature of DIR it seeks to embrace those that are willing to commit to it. More importantly, my personal desire is to see the industry improve. Most of you have, at best, a casual investment in the diving industry (which I entirely appreciate). However, I have embraced this as a central component of my life; diving is something that I love and from which I also earn a living. I want to see the industry (both equipment and training) improve; alienating DIR from the infrastructure of the dive shops (whom I really do appreciate) would have prevented them from taking part in the process and, in a sense, only polarized the community more greatly. We wanted to allow for a climate that allowed everyone to have a chance to benefit from what DIR meant (whether they embrace it or not).
Ironically, many people seeking similar things end up at different conclusions. Francis Bacon (politician, author, thinker) called this tendency "idols of the cave", meaning that people are necessarily subject to their particular idiosyncrasies. I think that, in the end, we all have to act in accordance with our personal beliefs and their associated experiences and idiosyncrasies. If enough of us can surround an issue we might (as Bacon believed) just cancel out these idiosyncrasies and end up at the "truth" - whatever that means<G>
I am sorry but I have to run. Take care of yourselves. Thank you again for the insight you provide, the challenge to do better and, yes even the fuel (in the form of support) that spurs us toward becoming better.
Best,
Jarrod
Let me generalize the pricing issue (which is in some ways also a customer service issue) by saying that manufacturers with a distribution chain gain no personal financial benefit from the retail sales price. In other words they make the same money regardless of the sale price. Furthermore, they sacrifice a great portion of the profit, very often making less than each of the major parts of their distribution chain. Please also consider that it is in a manufacturer's best interest (more so than anyone) to care about the service associated with their product. Other components of the distribution chain almost always have several, if not a great many products to sell. Only the manufacturer is solely invested in a given brand and the experience of the customer (from start to finish). Unfortunately a great deal of the experience is beyond the direct control of the manufacturer; there are many variables accounting for what makes a solid distribution outlet. Savvy business people are sometimes not the best at customer service while some of the warmest people do not have the requisite knowledge and/or funding. Simply put, there are a breath-taking range of variables in this process. This is true for things as uncontrollable as people having a bad day (customer, dealer, distributor etc) and equally true for things seemingly more in their control such as how they are represented in a particular dive shop.
So, take as an example X person who had a bad experience and reports it to the manufacturer. Who is having the bad day, so to speak? Should you immediately pull the account based upon one ( or two or three?) complaints from a necessarily subjective opinion (there is no way to be truly objective- maybe ever and certainly not in this situation)? Therefore, if a manufacturer is going to suffer the many difficulties associated with a conventional distribution chain then they do it with the full realization of its many complications; they try their best to sort out who is actually making good on the intent- ie wider availability and better service to the customer. Price is the easiest means over which to compete and, therefore, the least capable and least service-oriented shops (usually working out of a second rate facility with low expense) cut throat the price. Eventually the value of a brand reaches a certain point and the shops with good service and nice, supportive (but expensive) infrastructures can't survive selling the product. Then the manufacturer loses all the best shops who are forced to go elsewhere to maintain their infrastructure; they are then left with shops that do not have the experience to understand what it takes to run their business (many go out of business and only hurt the industry on their downfall). Now we come back to the manufacturer who has lost his good customer support facilities and is still making the same, reduced profit necessitated by the distribution chain. However, they no longer receive the benefit. Of course there are counter examples but most (if not all) represent a product with much less complexity that is much less service intensive (computers, books, simple products etc). Scuba diving has a complex array of individual, legal, and self- regulatory influences toward the training of divers and selling of equipment.
If any company was in a better position to sell direct it was Halcyon. We had a solid Internet presence and much of our business was really customer driven ie many customers going to the dealer and saying I want you to carry this product. I am certain that we would have made more money, given our brand recognition, had we sold direct. However, I feel this would have been to the detriment of DIR and ultimately to the industry. This is because despite the seemingly exclusionary nature of DIR it seeks to embrace those that are willing to commit to it. More importantly, my personal desire is to see the industry improve. Most of you have, at best, a casual investment in the diving industry (which I entirely appreciate). However, I have embraced this as a central component of my life; diving is something that I love and from which I also earn a living. I want to see the industry (both equipment and training) improve; alienating DIR from the infrastructure of the dive shops (whom I really do appreciate) would have prevented them from taking part in the process and, in a sense, only polarized the community more greatly. We wanted to allow for a climate that allowed everyone to have a chance to benefit from what DIR meant (whether they embrace it or not).
Ironically, many people seeking similar things end up at different conclusions. Francis Bacon (politician, author, thinker) called this tendency "idols of the cave", meaning that people are necessarily subject to their particular idiosyncrasies. I think that, in the end, we all have to act in accordance with our personal beliefs and their associated experiences and idiosyncrasies. If enough of us can surround an issue we might (as Bacon believed) just cancel out these idiosyncrasies and end up at the "truth" - whatever that means<G>
I am sorry but I have to run. Take care of yourselves. Thank you again for the insight you provide, the challenge to do better and, yes even the fuel (in the form of support) that spurs us toward becoming better.
Best,
Jarrod
detroit diver
Contributor
- Messages
- 3,410
- Reaction score
- 13
Wow.
Thanks!
Thanks!
docmartin
Contributor
despite my own not-so-great experience with halcyon customer service (having had to wait well more than a month during prime diving season to get my rusty harness hardware back) i must say i do like my halcyon gear and believe jj is sincere.
i do sympathize with genesis about his fustration with halcyon. he obviously felt not treated right although i do not think there are many companies that would honor a claim from someone who is not the original owner. that's the risk you take when buying second hand - even if the equipment is unused. i am sure he paid less than the normal price. that discount is the risk premium. in any event the whole situation has become a bit of a "he said, she said" deal and noone will ever know what really happened. regardless of who is at fault, i do find it unfortunate that this one episode is coloring so much of the discourse. even if genesis' view is absolutely correct and even if someone at halcyon caused the holes (which even genesis cannot know for certain) i do not think this would be a reason to condemn a company.
jj admitted himself that all is not perfect as warranty claims regarding holes have not always been handled consistently. he obviously cares about what people think of halcyon otherwise he would not have posted here. therefore, i assume he will address the issue as best he can. i am sure there are things where halcyon can improve but let's not get hung up on one episode. a wasted thread is a terrible thing
i do sympathize with genesis about his fustration with halcyon. he obviously felt not treated right although i do not think there are many companies that would honor a claim from someone who is not the original owner. that's the risk you take when buying second hand - even if the equipment is unused. i am sure he paid less than the normal price. that discount is the risk premium. in any event the whole situation has become a bit of a "he said, she said" deal and noone will ever know what really happened. regardless of who is at fault, i do find it unfortunate that this one episode is coloring so much of the discourse. even if genesis' view is absolutely correct and even if someone at halcyon caused the holes (which even genesis cannot know for certain) i do not think this would be a reason to condemn a company.
jj admitted himself that all is not perfect as warranty claims regarding holes have not always been handled consistently. he obviously cares about what people think of halcyon otherwise he would not have posted here. therefore, i assume he will address the issue as best he can. i am sure there are things where halcyon can improve but let's not get hung up on one episode. a wasted thread is a terrible thing
Jarrod and I have traded a few PMs as well....
Let me say that while I disagree with his analysis, I don't dislike the guy. He and I just see things differently when it comes to the issues and incentives in this, like any other, business. Having run a number of them and worked for still more, and having either failed or watched one go down around me (but powerless to do anything about it other than crank out resumes) more than once before "doing it right" (can I still say that? ), I've found that the more different industries and businesses seem the more they are the same, in reality.
Contrary to perhaps popular belief, I do appreciate what JJ deals with in running Halcyon. I had many long nights and longer days (some of them more than 48 hours long) myself in a lonely corner office dealing with various issues that arose, and lots of time on the road too.
The problem I've seen with price protection, beyond the fact that you have to use a loophole in the law to do it at all (the clear original intent of the Sherman act is to prohibit these practices), is that it inherently unbalances the market. The consequence of that shows up in other areas, none of which look like they're connected to pricing, but in fact they all are.
The "puppy mill" mentality that has overrun diving is a good example. Its driven to a large extent by an overreliance on hardware sales, and the best folks to shove that upon are the new, wide-eyed fishwatcher who just got his first few hits of Nitrogen.
What is wrong by forcing a divorce between the hardware sellers and the "dive resorts"? Split hardware off from training, trips and fills. Let me posit a model that I believe would work better all the way around for the industry and the diver..... since JJ threw down the gauntlet in his response...
Assume no price controls. JJ is correct in that Halcyon makes no more money with its "FTP" pricing than if it didn't have it - their price to the dealer is the same either way.
If the controls are dropped, then shops are unable to subsidize their training, fills and even trips (possibly) with hardware sales. Its simply impossible. You now have to make a business out of hardware sales on their own feet, without them paying for other stuff. Likewise for the compressor, mixing station, and training.
Is this bad?
No, I argue that its good!
If we de-couple these things, we end up with a lot of benefits. Let's look at it a bit....
1. Training now is done at a price that actually pays for the training received. You can't do the puppy mill thing, because there's nowhere to "soak" the new diver. There is no longer any great incentive to crank a lot of people through at no profit for the explicit purpose of trying to get a couple of them out of every 10 to buy gear from you - since you don't SELL gear!
2. Those agencies that REALLY want to set a "higher bar" (e.g. GUE) now can without having any incentive or desire to "link" their actions to a "full service shop." They're JUST a training org, or a training and diving org. This is not bad - its good! You can now put a dive training center where it makes sense, whether or not it will support (or will be supported by!) hardware sales.
3. The guys who want to sell gear can. With open parts availability, service issues disappear. Now I can get my Mares reg fixed anywhere, because any sales/repair facility can get the parts - even if they don't sell Mares gear. Ditto for SP, Apeks, etc. With this wall gone customers now take their gear where they WANT to have it serviced, instead of to whoever has the local franchise for a particular brand. This is also good! The competent ones stay around, the others die off.
4. How many of you haven't seen the "if I sell it then its golden, otherwise its garbage" phenom? If that shop is your LDS, is this good for you or bad? Pretty bad eh? There's one shop around here that is known for this..... if he was YOUR LDS (the one who certified you, etc) how heavily influence are you likely to be by the captive sales pitch? Not good overall for the customer, wouldn't you say?
5. As for training accountability, there would be a huge improvement. Right now there's a "hidden" problem in that if someone has a bad experience with a given shop on a training-related issue, and its "their" LDS, they have an incentive NOT to report it. Why? Because their gear service might be impacted! Consider that ALL the agencies require you to name names and complain in writing. That's not good if you bought a bunch of "Brand X" hardware from them, had a problem, and now you're going to file a complaint about their training - identifying yourself! How many people slink off into the night instead? I bet its lots - perhaps nearly all. Lack of accountability and that feeling of being "captive" does not make for a solid, accountable, fair and honest relationship between divers, shops, agencies and manufacturers.
There's more, but I think the point is pretty clear..... everyone should be able to fill in the rest...
I'll leave this by saying that there is an old general principle that many people ignore, yet it remains even more true today than it has been over the last thousand years - people mold their actions based on the economic consequences thereof, whether we account for them in detail or not. The simplest example of this can be seen on a street corner where there are four gas stations, and one sells gas for a two or three cents more a gallon than the other. Their pumps will be empty.
Over less than fifty cents to the average customer one company will go bust, the others will split all the business.
Let me say that while I disagree with his analysis, I don't dislike the guy. He and I just see things differently when it comes to the issues and incentives in this, like any other, business. Having run a number of them and worked for still more, and having either failed or watched one go down around me (but powerless to do anything about it other than crank out resumes) more than once before "doing it right" (can I still say that?
), I've found that the more different industries and businesses seem the more they are the same, in reality.Contrary to perhaps popular belief, I do appreciate what JJ deals with in running Halcyon. I had many long nights and longer days (some of them more than 48 hours long) myself in a lonely corner office dealing with various issues that arose, and lots of time on the road too.
The problem I've seen with price protection, beyond the fact that you have to use a loophole in the law to do it at all (the clear original intent of the Sherman act is to prohibit these practices), is that it inherently unbalances the market. The consequence of that shows up in other areas, none of which look like they're connected to pricing, but in fact they all are.
The "puppy mill" mentality that has overrun diving is a good example. Its driven to a large extent by an overreliance on hardware sales, and the best folks to shove that upon are the new, wide-eyed fishwatcher who just got his first few hits of Nitrogen.
What is wrong by forcing a divorce between the hardware sellers and the "dive resorts"? Split hardware off from training, trips and fills. Let me posit a model that I believe would work better all the way around for the industry and the diver..... since JJ threw down the gauntlet in his response...
Assume no price controls. JJ is correct in that Halcyon makes no more money with its "FTP" pricing than if it didn't have it - their price to the dealer is the same either way.
If the controls are dropped, then shops are unable to subsidize their training, fills and even trips (possibly) with hardware sales. Its simply impossible. You now have to make a business out of hardware sales on their own feet, without them paying for other stuff. Likewise for the compressor, mixing station, and training.
Is this bad?
No, I argue that its good!
If we de-couple these things, we end up with a lot of benefits. Let's look at it a bit....
1. Training now is done at a price that actually pays for the training received. You can't do the puppy mill thing, because there's nowhere to "soak" the new diver. There is no longer any great incentive to crank a lot of people through at no profit for the explicit purpose of trying to get a couple of them out of every 10 to buy gear from you - since you don't SELL gear!
2. Those agencies that REALLY want to set a "higher bar" (e.g. GUE) now can without having any incentive or desire to "link" their actions to a "full service shop." They're JUST a training org, or a training and diving org. This is not bad - its good! You can now put a dive training center where it makes sense, whether or not it will support (or will be supported by!) hardware sales.
3. The guys who want to sell gear can. With open parts availability, service issues disappear. Now I can get my Mares reg fixed anywhere, because any sales/repair facility can get the parts - even if they don't sell Mares gear. Ditto for SP, Apeks, etc. With this wall gone customers now take their gear where they WANT to have it serviced, instead of to whoever has the local franchise for a particular brand. This is also good! The competent ones stay around, the others die off.
4. How many of you haven't seen the "if I sell it then its golden, otherwise its garbage" phenom? If that shop is your LDS, is this good for you or bad? Pretty bad eh? There's one shop around here that is known for this..... if he was YOUR LDS (the one who certified you, etc) how heavily influence are you likely to be by the captive sales pitch? Not good overall for the customer, wouldn't you say?
5. As for training accountability, there would be a huge improvement. Right now there's a "hidden" problem in that if someone has a bad experience with a given shop on a training-related issue, and its "their" LDS, they have an incentive NOT to report it. Why? Because their gear service might be impacted! Consider that ALL the agencies require you to name names and complain in writing. That's not good if you bought a bunch of "Brand X" hardware from them, had a problem, and now you're going to file a complaint about their training - identifying yourself! How many people slink off into the night instead? I bet its lots - perhaps nearly all. Lack of accountability and that feeling of being "captive" does not make for a solid, accountable, fair and honest relationship between divers, shops, agencies and manufacturers.
There's more, but I think the point is pretty clear..... everyone should be able to fill in the rest...
I'll leave this by saying that there is an old general principle that many people ignore, yet it remains even more true today than it has been over the last thousand years - people mold their actions based on the economic consequences thereof, whether we account for them in detail or not. The simplest example of this can be seen on a street corner where there are four gas stations, and one sells gas for a two or three cents more a gallon than the other. Their pumps will be empty.
Over less than fifty cents to the average customer one company will go bust, the others will split all the business.
You know, this is dead on. I had a guy, who was rather experienced in business and marketing, once try to tell me that all the people who worked in offices on a certain block in town were customers of a retail outlet that was on the same block. This was in response to complaining that these office workers took up the difficult-to-police street parking making it difficult for actual customers to get there.
Simply: a potential customer does not become an actual customer until they buy something. You can't count sales until the product is sold. And most people will drive an extra mile to save a dollar, even if it costs two dollars for the gas.
Convenience and pricing cannot be underestimated, and this seems to be done by far too many in the dive industry. I have nothing against LP... the more power to them. If my LDS can match their prices (which I've found two that will come very close) then they get my business. But that's just because I'm wishing to stay somewhat local.
Well well well, looks like halcyon's CEO had to finally step up and speak out in an effort to save his company. Doesn't surprise me at all that he jumped on this board.
You know, it's funny? I get emails all the time from people that have changed over from halcyon to Oxycheq's wings. Somewhere in the 70's number last time I counted, and 5 dealers (2 of them all I had to do was show them my single tank Oxycheq wing) who took new stock of Oxycheq, over their old halcyon stock they've been trying to dump.
Huh, it would be so funny if halcyon changed their wing design which supposedly set the precedence for DIR/GUE, and that to dive with their design is truly DIR.
But to be market competitive, "not match I didn't say match", but to be market competitive with Oxycheq wing I'm saying is that as long as halcyon sticks with their wing design and doesn't change them to match the similarities in Oxycheq's wings, then they won't be sticking their foot in their mouths. I'm waiting for that to happen, cause they know they have no choice, I wouldn't be surprised if their sales are slumping.
Anyway, I hope they don't go as low as to copy Oxycheq's wing designs, which are longer in length than halcyon's "pie-on-ear" wing. You know in this game size does matter, and in this case the smaller longer Oxycheq "trims out" much better, hahahahhahahaha.
Another thing, it's so pathetic to hear you guys kiss halcyon's leader's butt, "Welcome on the board JJ", how pathetic. Like he's really gonna give you guys a deal on their gear, what a joke. Many of you even admit to be pro-halcyon and bash Patrick and Oxycheq, bet you haven't even seen the wings, they are awesome, too bad you guys are just toooooo closed minded.
In fact, one of you and we all know who he is, is kissing both Mr. halcyon's butt and Patricks from Oxycheq's butt on this post trying to get free gear from both of them to do trials, that's really pathetic, talk about a two faced double agent, "call me Bond, Lame Bond", hahahhahaha.
Hmmmmm, I'm waiting for halcyon to lower the pricing on their wings to be competitive with Oxycheq's wings, only time will tell. How else you gonna compete with Oxycheq's quality and low pricing.
They have a nicer plate in different sizes and weights, they have a nicer wing that doesn't leak and is so small yet provides more than enough lift and superior trim. To me that is what matters, safe reliable gear. Who cares if your DIR trained. Gear matters too, don't let anyone tell you other wise. I'm not paying for sorry crap. I've done my research, I know what's the real deal.
Oxycheq rules!:bang:
You know, it's funny? I get emails all the time from people that have changed over from halcyon to Oxycheq's wings. Somewhere in the 70's number last time I counted, and 5 dealers (2 of them all I had to do was show them my single tank Oxycheq wing) who took new stock of Oxycheq, over their old halcyon stock they've been trying to dump.
Huh, it would be so funny if halcyon changed their wing design which supposedly set the precedence for DIR/GUE, and that to dive with their design is truly DIR.
But to be market competitive, "not match I didn't say match", but to be market competitive with Oxycheq wing I'm saying is that as long as halcyon sticks with their wing design and doesn't change them to match the similarities in Oxycheq's wings, then they won't be sticking their foot in their mouths. I'm waiting for that to happen, cause they know they have no choice, I wouldn't be surprised if their sales are slumping.
Anyway, I hope they don't go as low as to copy Oxycheq's wing designs, which are longer in length than halcyon's "pie-on-ear" wing. You know in this game size does matter, and in this case the smaller longer Oxycheq "trims out" much better, hahahahhahahaha.
Another thing, it's so pathetic to hear you guys kiss halcyon's leader's butt, "Welcome on the board JJ", how pathetic. Like he's really gonna give you guys a deal on their gear, what a joke. Many of you even admit to be pro-halcyon and bash Patrick and Oxycheq, bet you haven't even seen the wings, they are awesome, too bad you guys are just toooooo closed minded.
In fact, one of you and we all know who he is, is kissing both Mr. halcyon's butt and Patricks from Oxycheq's butt on this post trying to get free gear from both of them to do trials, that's really pathetic, talk about a two faced double agent, "call me Bond, Lame Bond", hahahhahaha.
Hmmmmm, I'm waiting for halcyon to lower the pricing on their wings to be competitive with Oxycheq's wings, only time will tell. How else you gonna compete with Oxycheq's quality and low pricing.
They have a nicer plate in different sizes and weights, they have a nicer wing that doesn't leak and is so small yet provides more than enough lift and superior trim. To me that is what matters, safe reliable gear. Who cares if your DIR trained. Gear matters too, don't let anyone tell you other wise. I'm not paying for sorry crap. I've done my research, I know what's the real deal.
Oxycheq rules!:bang:
- Messages
- 3,669
- Reaction score
- 3
Hmm, starting to sound like a broken record there dude. I think this is my first Scubaboard plonk.
James
James
Similar threads
