AOW right after OWD

[Tigerman]

It works in some locations. However, there is a cost/time implication to the dive center. That's okay in a low-volume market, such as the Maldives, but not really practicable in a high-volume/turn-over location, such as Koh Tao (Thailand) where dozens of divers may turn up at your shop on any given day...

It also requires either (1) the check-out to be free... and/or (2) every dive operation to conduct check-outs. Otherwise, you can commit business suicide by charging/demanding a check-out dive when competitors don't. It works well in the Maldives because each resort/dive center has a captive market. They can make their rules as they see fit and the customer has no choice but to comply... there is no immediate competition. That's not true in many/most diving areas.

It's also not practical if a holiday diver turns up at the shop at 7pm to book a (challenging) dive trip at 7am the next morning. Nor is it applicable to dive boat charters (dive site taxis) that only provide boat, not diving, services.

Besides which, a check-out dive can mean many things. In the Maldives, I found the (compulsory) check-out dives to be a shallow/confined water repetition of basic OW skills. Whilst that might show a degree of water comfort, it didn't prove any experience for deep, wreck or strong current diving etc...

Ever been to the red sea?
Thats pretty darn high volume and its the norm to do checkout dives. You wont dive the Thistlegorm or the national parks before you've done the checkout dives - which is gonna take a day of your diving and its not going to be free.
Its not bad dives though, although nowhere near the more interesting sites unless you find some of the more or less residential mantas. These checkouts applies to everyone, regardless of certification level. The only way youre getting away from them with any reputable op is to be a regular customer coming there several trips every year.. Tech divers migh possibly be treated otherwise, but to be honest Ive seen some tech divers who shouldnt be doing 100ft drift dives..

Even if not everyone would be requiering it - I dont think it would be buisness suicide for a single/a few shops to require it while others dont - theres quite a lot of people that'd rather not dive with idiots..

 

[yarik83]

I do not like how scuba classes are being taught period, regardless of certifying agency.

Nitrox and Open Water are taught at the same time in my neck of the woods. With SSI I can pretty much become an instructor with only 70 dives. That about sums it up folks.

Open water training requires 6 dives or so. 4 more dives gives you advanced adventurer. At 10 dives you can be a "specialty diver". At 24 you can be advanced open water. 50 to become a master diver or a dive guide after which it looks pretty much irrelevant how many dives you have.

I can tell you first hand that after seeing about 100 newly certified divers, even those with 24 dives... they barely have their feet wet. How can they be advanced open water? Any rational person would not want to push their limits and yet I was just in a class with a guy who had 48 dives who's 1st open water dive was off a cruise ship at 135ft deep. You heard me. FIRST open water dive.

As freshly certified master diver with 240+ dives under my belt I wholeheartedly disagree with how agencies do their training. Stress and rescue for example should be taught as part of scuba course. Nitrox should not be given until at least 20+ dives. Master diver needs to have well over 200 dives. Trainer should have well over 500 dives. It just seems like all these agencies use "Pay to get certified" program which does not create divers, rather certifies them.

 

[Tigerman]

Why should nitrox have a minimum dive requirement? The course is actually a very good way to give a better understanding of the way breathing under pressure and diving in general, even if it doesnt give you any dive time benefits (as youd be breathing the tank dry before hitting the ndl anyways)

 

[supergaijin]

DD is correct in that Maldivian resorts have a captive market. However the 'check dive' is actually required by law.


CHAP.2/Section 11: Orientation Dive

(1) If a diver is certified as an entry level diver or above, but cannot show proof of at least 30 dives and / or has not been diving in the last 3 months, the diver is required to make an Orientation Dive.

(2) An Orientation Dive is NOT a test, but is a dive in shallow water under quiet, controlled circumstances, where the diver is given the opportunity to regain confidence in his / her skills, including but not limited to: mask clearing, regulator recovery, neutral buoyancy, ascents, descents and alternate air source breathing.
http://www.agoffice.gov.mv/pdf/subrege/Diving.pdf

Some do them in the lagoon in front of the DC, some (like is practiced in Sharm) do them from the boat at a simple dive site. There still exists a few dive centers who will not allow you access to some areas (Tiran/Ras Mo) if you cannot 'perform'.... actually nowadays I doubt that after the latest Egyptian diving tourism 'reforms'.

SEA countries could introduce this concept quite easily however it would mean that the operators would need to step back and put safety before volume first.

 

[jIM STEELE]

I've seen this so many times now that I have to ask... New divers, newly certified OWD, finish their OWD cert and head right into the AOW course, sometimes without even doing a single dive on their own in between.

What's the idea behind doing this? I'm not PADI trained and it seems to be mostly (only?) PADI divers who do this. I've always been under the impression that AOW makes sense only after gaining some real-world diving experience (at least that's what I remember from the SSI system), but this common immediate OWD/AOW combo contradicts this. I think you grasted it

Not trying to stir up anything, I'm genuinely curious about what the reasoning is. Do they feel that their OWD training was inadequate and they hope to fill the gaps through AOW? Not enough pool time in OWD and they want more before they start diving on their own? Or is it the depth limitation of the PADI OWD level (what is it, 60 ft?) that they think is not enough for what they want to dive? If that's what it is, what does the AOW teach them that OWD didn't, that would let them go beyond the OWD depth limit?

Basic classes should include aow and rescue for safe diving with out divemaster buddys in warm water most people need 40 hr class not the typical 20 hr class

 

[DevonDiver]

Basic classes should include aow and rescue for safe diving with out divemaster buddys in warm water most people need 40 hr class not the typical 20 hr class

My personal opinion is that Open Water certification should still retain the obligation to dive supervised by a pro. 4 dives is woefully inadequate to permit unsupervised diving, especially given that any restrictions on those dives are only 'recommended' by the agencies.

That'd mean that OW provided an end-state similar to the current 'Scuba Diver' certification, except a depth limit of 18m/60ft, not 12m. AOW could increase the breadth of activity, even increase the depth, but retain a requirement for supervision.

I also think that Rescue Diver should be recognized as the point where divers are truly 'independent' of the need for supervision/support. Anything less is a tacit admission that it's okay to dive with no provision of first-aid/rescue cover.

For 90% of divers (irregular, holiday-type divers) that'd be in keeping with what they do now anyway. For the smaller percentage of divers who dive independently from their initial qualification (cold-water, more regular, 'home' divers) that'd be a small disadvantage in convenience/cost, but an advantage in safety. Bearing in mind that pro supervision might be 'in-direct/surface', it'd just mean a pro on the boat, not necessarily in the water.

Ever been to the red sea?
Thats pretty darn high volume and its the norm to do checkout dives.

I've been to the Red Sea and didn't see much evidence of mandatory checkout dives. I wonder what insight Red Sea experienced instructors might shed on this situation?

You wont dive the Thistlegorm or the national parks before you've done the checkout dives - which is gonna take a day of your diving and its not going to be free.

That doesn't fit with what I've experienced/heard. I could be wrong though - my diving in the Red Sea is quite limited... I'm an Asia-Pacific sorta guy...

Even if not everyone would be requiering it - I dont think it would be buisness suicide for a single/a few shops to require it while others dont - theres quite a lot of people that'd rather not dive with idiots..

I think that's a little naive and overly confident on the nature of most divers. Perhaps it's a regional thing... but I don't see that many novice divers discerning operations on the grounds of safety over cost. Many novice divers wouldn't recognize all the safety issues anyway.

The only time in 22 years/18+ countries worth of diving that I've been asked to do a check-out for (recreational) dives was on my two trips to the Maldives. As we now know... that's because it's a law there. I've never seen it anywhere else, other than for technical dives (where progressive work-up diving is the norm).

 

[tphelps]

I've met guys, wayyyy older than me that have been doing this since the 80s, they just did their open water and nothing else. One of them has over 3,000 dives now. Experience is the main factor that makes a good diver. But being an instructor, tec, sidemount and rebreather diver...there is so much I have learned from my training that has made me a better diver. And like they say, its more for the additional experience, limits of OW and above all...the rating of being "Advanced." There are lots of reasons why you should do the next course but I always think experiences is the best "course" you can take.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Perhaps it would be easier if somebody could come up with a program, some kind of proof system, that certifies that the diver in question has both the theoretical knowledge and the practical experience to safely execute those more challenging, one could say advanced, dives. It could be called something like, advanced open water diver certification...

... which would be great if that's what AOW actually prepared you for. Some do ... most don't.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added May 2nd, 2013 at 05:33 AM ----------

It works in some locations. However, there is a cost/time implication to the dive center. That's okay in a low-volume market, such as the Maldives, but not really practicable in a high-volume/turn-over location, such as Koh Tao (Thailand) where dozens of divers may turn up at your shop on any given day...

It also requires either (1) the check-out to be free... and/or (2) every dive operation to conduct check-outs. Otherwise, you can commit business suicide by charging/demanding a check-out dive when competitors don't. It works well in the Maldives because each resort/dive center has a captive market. They can make their rules as they see fit and the customer has no choice but to comply... there is no immediate competition. That's not true in many/most diving areas.

It's also not practical if a holiday diver turns up at the shop at 7pm to book a (challenging) dive trip at 7am the next morning. Nor is it applicable to dive boat charters (dive site taxis) that only provide boat, not diving, services.

Besides which, a check-out dive can mean many things. In the Maldives, I found the (compulsory) check-out dives to be a shallow/confined water repetition of basic OW skills. Whilst that might show a degree of water comfort, it didn't prove any experience for deep, wreck or strong current diving etc...

It's especially useful when the DM conducting the checkout dive insists you do those OW skills while kneeling ... so they can "assure that you're properly weighted" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[nimoh]

DD is correct in that Maldivian resorts have a captive market. However the 'check dive' is actually required by law.


CHAP.2/Section 11: Orientation Dive

(1) If a diver is certified as an entry level diver or above, but cannot show proof of at least 30 dives and / or has not been diving in the last 3 months, the diver is required to make an Orientation Dive.

(2) An Orientation Dive is NOT a test, but is a dive in shallow water under quiet, controlled circumstances, where the diver is given the opportunity to regain confidence in his / her skills, including but not limited to: mask clearing, regulator recovery, neutral buoyancy, ascents, descents and alternate air source breathing.
http://www.agoffice.gov.mv/pdf/subrege/Diving.pdf

Some do them in the lagoon in front of the DC, some (like is practiced in Sharm) do them from the boat at a simple dive site. There still exists a few dive centers who will not allow you access to some areas (Tiran/Ras Mo) if you cannot 'perform'.... actually nowadays I doubt that after the latest Egyptian diving tourism 'reforms'.

SEA countries could introduce this concept quite easily however it would mean that the operators would need to step back and put safety before volume first.

The problem is that I diver cannot show proof of at least 30 dives, they can only show evidence.

Want to skip the orientation dive? Buy a log book with at least 30 pages and fill them out.

 

[MrChen]

I'm taking my AOW in 3 weeks. I've only got a few dives in between and my only boat dive was with my Nitrox instructor (which was also my OW instructor and by chance lives in the same neighborhood as me). He didn't do any preaching (outside calculating my dive time/max depth for my nitrox mixture) and just tagged along with me since the dive wasn't actually required for the Nitrox cert. He just wanted to see me through a save boat dive which was really cool and made the dive an awesome experience.

As I'm studying the AOW, I'm learning more about drift diving and realizing my boat dive was irregular because I was with my instructor. Had I attempted this without him, I would have been lost, confused, and would of had no idea what to do. Maybe the boat DM would have taken care of me if I was not with him, but regardless by studying the AOW I've learned what would be expected of me on the next dive. The OW course covered none of this and didn't include a drift dive. Since I'm in South Florida, drift diving at 80 ft is very common and I'm glad there's a specialty course on it.

For me, the AOW is just further supervised dives which concentrate on more advanced diving options which are geared for our area. It's also a confidence booster when you aren't learning this stuff on the fly while putting yourself and others in danger.

Plus these dive instructors need to make a living too.