AOW right after OWD

[MXGratefulDiver]

You experience...and the attentiveness (or lack of) of dive operations you've encountered are not a yardstick by which to judge the merits of logbook inspection as a gauge of experience.

Hypothetically, if someone did inspect your logbook... what would they learn about your diving experience? Would it help them gauge your preparedness for specific dives?

I've never had a dive op ask to inspect my logbook. If they did ask, I'd have to ask them to specify which year they'd like to see, since each year is 250+ pages long. Furthermore, since I don't print those pages out, I'd have to ask them if they'd like me to send them a CD, or would it be OK for me to email them a file ... preferably in PDF format, since otherwise the file might be too large for their mail server.

And I would question what information they would get from that log that they couldn't get better answered by simply asking me ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[supergaijin]

99% of divers' logbooks that I have seen:

Max depth, dive time, temperature and visibility. "I saw a red fish and two blue fish".

The 1% have:

descriptions of the site (sometimes maps), current directions (there can be many), SAC/RMV rates, exposure suit/tank/weight requirements... as well as "3 red fish and 9 blue fish".

Check dives need not have OW skills required (unless required by law). They can simply be dives in a 'low risk' environment where the vast majority of recreational divers can use the time to lower their air consumption and focus on buoyancy/trim, before stampeding for the marine reserves. This is/was normal in Sharm el Sheik.

 

[dytis-sm]

My personal experience after going from OW to Rescue in 3 years...

I think the issue is how many things an OW diver can absorb within the short certification process. We all learn differently but personally I find that doing back to back classes does not give you enough time to master all the skills just introduced. I think to develop "muscle memory" you need time to absorb the concepts and then add more. I have about 70 dives since I got certified 3 years ago, dive often, and still trying to perfect my buoyancy skills, yet I took a PADI buoyancy specialty class right after my required dives for OW. It was suggested to me as a great idea for new divers, but looking back I think it was a "selling" idea not something that helped me then. If I had that class after 20-30 dives in the ocean without an instructor, then it would have done more sense as it would have answered some questions or concerns I had built over trying to perfect my buoyancy. So personally I am against pilling up classes in an effort to become a better diver. You cannot replace experience with ratings and classes.

Part of the problem of people being over-certified in short periods of time is that a lot of people develop the interest and then let it die (it is easy after leaving the tropics). Shops and Agencies recognize this trait and try to capitalize on that interest in the short time the vacation diver is fascinated by diving. In the process, the diver thinks (I am guilty too) that he or she have become a better diver because they are AOW or even rescue and jump in the water a bit overconfident going into difficult dives for which they are certified. I will not deny that I became overconfident with certifications over time, only to find out that I was not ready until I was faced with situations in the water and combined RECENT training to deal with them. I capitalize "recent" because part of the problem is that skills and training get easily forgotten when not used. The worst part with divers pilling on the training while on vacation it that rarely the majority will dive again until the next vacation. So basically anything learned will be probably forgotten by the next set of dives, and there is probably nothing worst than an overconfident inexperience diver.

Two cents from a "new" diver.

 

[DevonDiver]

And I would question what information they would get from that log that they couldn't get better answered by simply asking me ...

Agreed... an 'interview' with the diver is a very effective 'dry' form of evaluation. I'd assume that'd happen in-line with a logbook assessment, if done.

I very rarely rely on anything else but a good chat and a good dive to evaluate.

Logbooks - most helpful with novice-intermediate divers. In more advanced/experienced divers it's much less telling. I've also seen 'faked' logbooks. Also very experienced divers (on paper) who were nothing more than a collection of bad habits and complacency... people I'd not want to take on the overly-ambitious dives they desired.

Certification Cards - means nothing, unless I know the person who certified/trained them.

Dive Count - I take some stock whether a diver is in single, double, triple or quadruple figure dives. That's about it... a rough gauge. Totaled dives alone gives no indication of mindset - which is a particularly important aspect in more advanced diving.

Check-Out Dive - Happens on all my courses and before any overhead/technical dives. Not a single 'assessment', but rather a staged progression of dives in which to judge competency. I don't really lead 'fun divers' any more - but if I did, I would do the same (the joys of being freelance, not a dive shop drone)

 

[TSandM]

The only place I was asked for my logbook was in Australia. At that time, I was keeping a paper log, and I had it with me. Now it would be more difficult, because I only log on my laptop.

I've never been asked to do a "checkout dive" anywhere, not formally -- but I suspect that some of the places I've been, they just planned a relatively easy first dive to get a sense of the group. Since, when one is diving in a new environment, everything you see is unfamiliar and exciting, that's never been an issue. And I actually would prefer a simple dive for the first one, to make sure everything I brought is working and to identify any changes that need to be made for changes in configuration or conditions.

I think checkout dives are the only real way to assess a diver. I have seen people straight out of OW who have done better than people with Rescue certs, especially if the latter have no recent diving experience.

 

[supergaijin]

Alas sometimes there can be very little time for a chat over cookies to get to know someone. Some dive centers I have worked in have counter staff that handle check in. Often they are not experienced and/or have limited communication skills.

Experienced divers know who they are. A surprising number of people try to make themselves out as being better or more experienced than they truly are. I have dived with 500+ divers certified in the late 70s when diver training was 'real' training and the results underwater were woeful.

AOW after OW doesn't make anyone advanced. It does give them a look at different types of diving and environment. It is the individual who calls themselves 'Advanced' when they sign up for the 'advanced' dives that normally make it to the magazine front cover.

 

[Tigerman]

you're implying that no matter how many dives i have i should go through a checkout dive before i am allowed to dive, or am i reading it wrong?
...

Yes, atleast as far as recreational divers goes...
Tech divers actually kinda does it to themselves - they just call them buildup dives..

99% of divers' logbooks that I have seen:

Max depth, dive time, temperature and visibility. "I saw a red fish and two blue fish".

The 1% have:

descriptions of the site (sometimes maps), current directions (there can be many), SAC/RMV rates, exposure suit/tank/weight requirements... as well as "3 red fish and 9 blue fish".

Check dives need not have OW skills required (unless required by law). They can simply be dives in a 'low risk' environment where the vast majority of recreational divers can use the time to lower their air consumption and focus on buoyancy/trim, before stampeding for the marine reserves. This is/was normal in Sharm el Sheik.

Still is, as of last fall anyways..

---------- Post added May 2nd, 2013 at 06:56 PM ----------

The only place I was asked for my logbook was in Australia. At that time, I was keeping a paper log, and I had it with me. Now it would be more difficult, because I only log on my laptop.

I've never been asked to do a "checkout dive" anywhere, not formally -- but I suspect that some of the places I've been, they just planned a relatively easy first dive to get a sense of the group. Since, when one is diving in a new environment, everything you see is unfamiliar and exciting, that's never been an issue. And I actually would prefer a simple dive for the first one, to make sure everything I brought is working and to identify any changes that need to be made for changes in configuration or conditions.

I think checkout dives are the only real way to assess a diver. I have seen people straight out of OW who have done better than people with Rescue certs, especially if the latter have no recent diving experience.

I think a LOT of people dont even realize that they are on checkout dives their first day in places like Sharm. They think they are just on a random boat going to the local sites doing mooring dives so they can get their gear dialed in for the week without realizing that their dives is actually being graded/rated.
Someone on the board actually wrote up an article somewhere about how that grading system generally worked..

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Experienced divers know who they are. A surprising number of people try to make themselves out as being better or more experienced than they truly are. I have dived with 500+ divers certified in the late 70s when diver training was 'real' training and the results underwater were woeful.

I once had a guy proudly tell me he's been diving since 1963, and has logged almost 300 dives. I couldn't help thinking "Nobody improves their skills doing only 6 dives a year ... doesn't matter how many years you work at it" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[t4e]

You experience...and the attentiveness (or lack of) of dive operations you've encountered are not a yardstick by which to judge the merits of logbook inspection as a gauge of experience.

Hypothetically, if someone did inspect your logbook... what would they learn about your diving experience? Would it help them gauge your preparedness for specific dives?

how should i know what would be satisfactory to various opinions?
but my question is, how do you verify the accuracy/validity of what is in that log book, can very well be all made up

Yes, atleast as far as recreational divers goes...
Tech divers actually kinda does it to themselves - they just call them buildup dives..

if the "checkout dive is a dive in some benign environment and is observation only i'm cool with it, however if the "checkout dive" consists of skill testing and what not...my money goes to a different dive shop...i did that already, i'm not just gonna waste a dive to satisfy that shop's curiosity


afaic its up to each individual not to exceed their limits
if someone is irresponsible enough to go on a dive beyond their capabilities its not much anyone can do about it to stop them, unless is in one of the minority places where checkout dives are required by law

 

[Tigerman]

how should i know what would be satisfactory to various opinions?
but my question is, how do you verify the accuracy/validity of what is in that log book, can very well be all made up

Yes, logbook entries can be made up and easilly as such when it says "Dive 43, 22 meters, 47 minutes, saw 2 crabs". However if it holds SAC rates, descriptions/maps of the site, detailed information on whats been seen, pressure in, pressure out, weight, suit, etc. its kinda more hassle to make it up than its worth..

if the "checkout dive is a dive in some benign environment and is observation only i'm cool with it, however if the "checkout dive" consists of skill testing and what not...my money goes to a different dive shop...i did that already, i'm not just gonna waste a dive to satisfy that shop's curiosity

IMO, if you're bothered by having to perform basic skills like mask clearing or retrieveing a lost regulator - you REALLY should be tested. It should take zero effort and close to zero time and can EASILLY be done as part of an easy dive...
I actually think that if having to prove you can clear your mask or retrieve a regulator make you upset, youre not as confident in your skills as you should be.
Ok, one exception - Ive heard of people on this board that got told off for doing skills hovering instead of kneeling on the bottomn - THAT is fully acceptable to be upset over..

afaic its up to each individual not to exceed their limits
if someone is irresponsible enough to go on a dive beyond their capabilities its not much anyone can do about it to stop them, unless is in one of the minority places where checkout dives are required by law

Dead customers is bad for buisness regardless of how much their own damn fault it is and that in addition to liability is why lots of dive shops have regulations in place that youre expected to follow in order to be allowed to dive with them.
Do you see many posts here on scubaboard from dive ops announcing that their customers died?
I can tell your for certain that although they dont announce it, any buisness working with high volumes of customers will have some of them permanently check out sooner or later and if the news blame them for it, the media circus has stopped way before the offical conclusion is the buisness was not to blame.