OP
Spectre
Contributor
No apology is necessary. The original question is dead and buried, but the thread has taken an interesting turn.
A disturbing PADI rumor
- Thread starter Spectre
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No apology is necessary. The original question is dead and buried, but the thread has taken an interesting turn.
I like keeping tables in the course, but some of the arguments being presented don't hold water.
Two hypothetical situations:
1. Diver learns to use tables in class and uses them quite well in checkout dives, but buys a computer right away. Two years later the computer starts diving out bogus info like 1 hour NDL at 100 ft. Why would the diver remember the NDL's from the tables he last used 2 years ago?
2. Diver never learns tables because his class started him on computers from the begining. Every day he dives he turns on the computer and it scrolls down the NDL's. Two years later the computer starts diving out bogus info like 1 hour NDL at 100 ft. Why wouldn't the diver remember the NDL's from the computer scrolling he last used 2 weeks ago?
Actually, I believe both divers are likely to remember what the computer used to scroll. Neither will remember NDL's from the tables.
Very few table users understand how the tables or computer calculates data.
I will keep tables in my classes regardless of which agency drops them from theirs, but I have to agree with Mike's logic on this.
Two hypothetical situations:
1. Diver learns to use tables in class and uses them quite well in checkout dives, but buys a computer right away. Two years later the computer starts diving out bogus info like 1 hour NDL at 100 ft. Why would the diver remember the NDL's from the tables he last used 2 years ago?
2. Diver never learns tables because his class started him on computers from the begining. Every day he dives he turns on the computer and it scrolls down the NDL's. Two years later the computer starts diving out bogus info like 1 hour NDL at 100 ft. Why wouldn't the diver remember the NDL's from the computer scrolling he last used 2 weeks ago?
Actually, I believe both divers are likely to remember what the computer used to scroll. Neither will remember NDL's from the tables.
Very few table users understand how the tables or computer calculates data.
I will keep tables in my classes regardless of which agency drops them from theirs, but I have to agree with Mike's logic on this.
JohnSnider
Registered
Hi Everyone,
Just my two cents....
I just finished my course a couple of weeks back. Basically, the instructor said the same thing... "within a couple of years" they won't even be teaching using dive tables. His explanation was if everyone is using computers why teach it. He did state that it was expected that within a couple of years dive computers will improve significantly....
Just my two cents....
I just finished my course a couple of weeks back. Basically, the instructor said the same thing... "within a couple of years" they won't even be teaching using dive tables. His explanation was if everyone is using computers why teach it. He did state that it was expected that within a couple of years dive computers will improve significantly....
Improve?
There isn't a display available in a computer today that compares with the Edge which was introduced in 1983!
There isn't a display available in a computer today that compares with the Edge which was introduced in 1983!
otter-cat
Guest
Mike,
I appreciate your response, and agree with you that someone who has not looked at the tables in a long time will forget them. I also agree that someone who uses their computer frequently would probably remember what their computer read a couple of weeks earlier for NDLs. I wasn't saying that no one should use a computer, I am just saying that computers should be used in conjunction with tables. If tables aren't taught to a diver, then they couldn't do that.
For divers who dive infrequently and do not use tables in conjuction with their computer, then a computer malfunction at depth could be extremely problematic, especially if they don't recognize that their computer is malfunctioning. If, however, divers are encouraged to use tables in conjunction with computers, then the diver would have to review the use of tables before they went diving again after a long hiatus, and would therefore be better off in the case of a computer malfunction.
Yes, all kinds of equipment can fail. And students should be taught what to do in the case of each kind of failure. One thing that they should be taught in case of computer failure at depth is to look at their table to determine appropriate NDLs and appropriate depths/times for safety stops as they abort the dive and return to the surface.
As far as understanding nitrogen loading goes, while it would be possible to teach someone to use the tables without knowing anything about nitrogen loading, I think it is unlikely that anyone would teach tables that way (and I would definitely say that that is not the correct way to teach tables!) I agree that the understanding of nitrogen loading involved in table use is very small, and that computers can supplement that information immensely, but what I am getting at is that it is easier to absorb how time and depth each affects the nitrogen loading when you learn to plan/analyze different dive profiles with the tables then you do merely by watching the dots on a computer graph. The mental activity involved in doing the calculation yourself will help you retain the information better than just examining computer-generated information about it. Also, as I said earlier, although all kinds of equipment can fail, a table cannot. If you have it, and know how to use it, you can use it.
Again, these are just my thoughts on the subject; feel free to let me know if you disagree!
otter-cat
I appreciate your response, and agree with you that someone who has not looked at the tables in a long time will forget them. I also agree that someone who uses their computer frequently would probably remember what their computer read a couple of weeks earlier for NDLs. I wasn't saying that no one should use a computer, I am just saying that computers should be used in conjunction with tables. If tables aren't taught to a diver, then they couldn't do that.
For divers who dive infrequently and do not use tables in conjuction with their computer, then a computer malfunction at depth could be extremely problematic, especially if they don't recognize that their computer is malfunctioning. If, however, divers are encouraged to use tables in conjunction with computers, then the diver would have to review the use of tables before they went diving again after a long hiatus, and would therefore be better off in the case of a computer malfunction.
Yes, all kinds of equipment can fail. And students should be taught what to do in the case of each kind of failure. One thing that they should be taught in case of computer failure at depth is to look at their table to determine appropriate NDLs and appropriate depths/times for safety stops as they abort the dive and return to the surface.
As far as understanding nitrogen loading goes, while it would be possible to teach someone to use the tables without knowing anything about nitrogen loading, I think it is unlikely that anyone would teach tables that way (and I would definitely say that that is not the correct way to teach tables!) I agree that the understanding of nitrogen loading involved in table use is very small, and that computers can supplement that information immensely, but what I am getting at is that it is easier to absorb how time and depth each affects the nitrogen loading when you learn to plan/analyze different dive profiles with the tables then you do merely by watching the dots on a computer graph. The mental activity involved in doing the calculation yourself will help you retain the information better than just examining computer-generated information about it. Also, as I said earlier, although all kinds of equipment can fail, a table cannot. If you have it, and know how to use it, you can use it.
Again, these are just my thoughts on the subject; feel free to let me know if you disagree!
otter-cat
OP
Spectre
Contributor
I don't know. It's a really simple concept once you know it. Sure, you might forget the actual no-deco limits from your head, but I can't imagine that you could actually forget how to use the tables...
otter-cat
Guest
Jeff,
I was actually referring to NDLs, and I guess I should have said "might" forget rather than "will" forget. But I definitely also think it's possible for some people to actually forget how to use the tables given enough time away from them. However, if they learned once, they could probably re-learn how to use them pretty quickly if they reviewed the instructions or went over how to do it with someone else who knows how to use the tables.
otter-cat
I was actually referring to NDLs, and I guess I should have said "might" forget rather than "will" forget. But I definitely also think it's possible for some people to actually forget how to use the tables given enough time away from them. However, if they learned once, they could probably re-learn how to use them pretty quickly if they reviewed the instructions or went over how to do it with someone else who knows how to use the tables.
otter-cat
People do forget how to use tables. I understood them instinctively, but most people see the world differently.
After a 3 year break from diving I pretty much forgot how to use the tables for anything more than a single dive. I didn't have my textbook so it took me a while to work out how to use it again. I did single dives until I got into an AOW class and then regained proficiency with the tables.
I don't think computers are necessary to dive safely at recreational depths although they may be nice to have for some people. Most people I dive with have computers. I still use tables. I would prefer to spend the money that decent computer would cost on more tanks. However the money is now going towards becoming an instructor instead of tanks.
I don't think computers are necessary to dive safely at recreational depths although they may be nice to have for some people. Most people I dive with have computers. I still use tables. I would prefer to spend the money that decent computer would cost on more tanks. However the money is now going towards becoming an instructor instead of tanks.
rtapia
Guest
I was recently OW certified through PADi, and although we did not spend as much time on tables as I which we would have, i felt that the subject was covered well, and there were several questions on the final exam about them, so we got enough practice
. I also feel very strongly about the fact that if you are wanting to dive, you should have the common sense to go beyond your basic instruction and read books other than the PADi manual, i went to my local library and got two books that went into a lot of detail about some of the things that we had discussed in class, I had a good understanding of the subjects because of the PADI class, but felt much better about them once I took the time to read more about it. If you are going to dive, you should be mature and serious enough about it to take the time to learn as much as you can aout it... My $0.02s
. I also feel very strongly about the fact that if you are wanting to dive, you should have the common sense to go beyond your basic instruction and read books other than the PADi manual, i went to my local library and got two books that went into a lot of detail about some of the things that we had discussed in class, I had a good understanding of the subjects because of the PADI class, but felt much better about them once I took the time to read more about it. If you are going to dive, you should be mature and serious enough about it to take the time to learn as much as you can aout it... My $0.02s
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