A question for newly qualified divers...........

[WetDane]

One of the local clubs up here is rtunning a program they call "Big Brother" - it is basically a way for a newly certified diver to hook up with an experienced diver to get in the water.
I think it is obvious that OW does not teach you much more than how the car works - there is certainly no level of experience given.
Considering that GUE requires 100 dives between cert levels... That should make you think about SSI, PADI and NAUI who has no requirements - I have seen people go from OW to AOW to Nitrox where the only dives they have done was the check out dives... This is a dangerous trend and I have problems with people who own every bit of equipment I have thought about but never purchased, yet they can't seem to read a tide table...

I think continued learning is the only way to go - but there has to be some experience involved as well...

Terkel

 

[DiverDave]

Terkel,

The Big Brother idea sounds like an excellent one, as long as nobody is sent to Room 101…

The concept of minimum requirements is an interesting one. PADI Rescue Diver introduces people to essential skills but does require an ability to look after yourself. Should someone who has done 9 dives (OW4, AOW5) jump straight onto a Rescue course? I think the answer has to be no. That person is unlikely to be in a position to be able to respond effectively to an emergency situation. However, it would be good for that person to be made aware of the issues of rescue. Perhaps the answer would lie in a two stage Rescue cert, stage one available straight after AOW, and stage two with a minimum number of dives (25-40?). O2 first aid should be taught properly within one of these stages.

PADI does have minimum dive requirements for professional ratings, 60 for DM, 100 for OWSI. The new Deep Tec course has minimum number of dives of 50 for apprentice, 100 for full cert. These are reasonably conservative compared to other Tech agencies.

Nitrox has no minimum requirements beyond OW but that seems reasonable to me. IANTD teach EAN from day one. The issues of OxTox are serious and must be stressed, but I see no reason why there should be a minimum number of dives required. Teaching EAN in conjunction with AOW makes a lot of sense

 

[WetDane]

Hey DiverDave,

I follow you and I think that it is good that there is some requirement for the pro ratings...
I'm just worried about the level of actual knowledge of "pro" - I dive with people who all started in the 1970's - these guys have a lot of watertime logged - the most common trouble with computers is that they can only hold 500 dives... I'm VERY comfortable with these guys - so I have no worries, but I see the "dive masters" and I see what I consider gross imaturity and lack of people skills as well as lack of plain old common sense.

It is a combination, one must be aware that certification agencies want to get as many people to pay for more training as fast as possible, then weigh that against how you value your own life... How will new divers know this? It's easy for me to disqualify a divemaster after 5 minutes of talk because I think he doesn't have a clue about what he is saying.

I agree that EON and AOW in conjunction makes a lot of sense - but perhaps AOW should be a little harder to get to? I think that as an absolute minimum students should be pretty good in their basic skills before taking more classes - and I think the dive shops should take a more active role in getting new divers wet... Some do, but a lot don't, doing this would also allow instructors to keep a tap on what level students skills are at...

The next step to this dicussion in my mind is to come up with some action points - what do you do about it? Well, I for one think that I'll ask one of the local shops to do saturday dives, not limited to new divers, but to anyone who want to go... One shop here has a club, pay the fee and you save 25% on rental gear - I think it is important that the divers who knows the ropes take some charge and make sure to show new divers around and get them out diving - after all, these new divers are the ones that will keep our LDS in business (I'm sure air fills do not pay rent for anyone).
Of the last class at one of my LDS, one of 6 students has been back after returning the rental gear from check out dives... They must obviously have had a great experience?!?

Cheers,
Terkel

 

[Mick]

As a newbie I can honestly say that this whole discussion revolves around common sense. Unfortunately, you cannot teach common sense, there is no book, study aid or PHD in the subject.
Without common sense, people dont realise their limits, they may think that the cert gives them the freedom and training to do what ever they like???

My girlfriend and I made up our mind long before we started our course that we would not be diving on our own. We will dive with our club and each of us will buddy with a more experienced diver.

When we are both more confidant with our own skills, starting shallow and gradually diving deeper, then we will decide which course to do next. For me, it will be Navigation, Night and Rescue as a "must do" list.

the idea of a mentor system is great, I think it is the best way, maybe even logging theses mentor dives and having the mentor sign off on them ???? that way they could write their comments and suggestions so that on the next dive they could work more on the aspects that need practice ??

Exactly how do you teach common sense ???

Mick eace:

 

[turnerjd]

Common sense can't be taught, but it can be screened for. It isn't necessary to have a fixed number of dives between courses, but a minimum, and a 'mentors' signature to prove you are OK to procede to the next level would work.

.02

Jon T

 

[Walter]

..........but it all comes down to the fact that each agency sets it's own standards. Those standards vary greatly. We can try to influence agencies, but usually our impact (even as instructors) is minimal. We should educate ourselves as well as possible concerning various agencies and how our local instructors teach their individual courses. There is a large difference between classes even within the same agency. We should encourage people we come in contact with to learn from those instructors with the best classes. I look for someone with patience and the ability to explain things in simple terms who teaches a comprehensive class. In general, the more topics covered in greater depth and the more time devoted to pool skills and the more skills mastered the better diver the student will become.

One problem is it is very difficult to obtain information about agencies. There is a comparison of three agencies posted on Diverlink, but it could be much better. It could include more agencies and it could be updated more frequently. If you agree and have access to current standards of any agency please contact me.

WWW™

 

[WetDane]

Ok, so maybe a mentor system - I like the comments about how someone is doing - and perhaps the mentor can also report to the instructor as a part of the common sense screening?

I agree that a set number of dives will not insure common sense, but I think a peer review of skills may help ensure that the diver is ready for more challenging diving...

Terkel

 

[turnerjd]

OK,

There are things that quite a few of us agree on. And also, we agree that the instructors have not a chance in hell of changeing the existing agencies. So, why not set up a new one.

We have the basic ideas already: DIS (do it safely), TIR (teach it right), mentoring, having to regularly demonstrate key skills such as rescue, and producing divers that are capable of dealing with themselves, as well as others.

Something based on these would I dare say be seen by many as dangerously different, and probably a retrograde step. However, from the instructors point of view, the whole system is based round lifelong learning, and if people are coming back regularly with the mentoring system, you are getting more regular customers. With a system such as this, customer care obviously is more important, as you want customers to stay loyal.

Such a system might not work for vacation divers, but has real advantages for people who want to dive locally.

Just .02

Jon T

 

[Walter]

When several well established ones are doing it correctly. While none of them are perfect, a new one wouldn't be perfect either. From what you tell me (I'd love to get a copy of their standards) BSAC is an excellent agency. I know for a fact YMCA and NAUI have excellent programs. Probably the most comprehensive agency anywhere is also the oldest. It's a small local agency, LA County.

WWW™

 

[turnerjd]

Walter,

A lot of places will use an agency like PADI because that is what the industry now accepts as providing the most comercially based system. Agencies Like the BSAC, and NAUI are both non profit making, whilst they provide good training, they will always be relegated to a minor role against the almighty Put Another Dollar In.

What I am mentally exploring at the moment is the idea of a vaguely comercially oriented agency, but providing a higher standard than PADI. Why not try and retain divers to do local diving after they have trained, one of the posters earlier said that 1 in 6 went back after their open water course to hire gear. This ratio is appaling, and something should be done to provide more support for newly qualified divers.

With a more formal mentoring system this can be introduced. Make it part of the DM course to have to mentor X students for Y number of dives. This gets divers comming to the shop for fills etc.. and provides a higher level of continuig education for everybody.

Just the nucleus of an idea.

Jon T