Adequacy of OW and AOW

[The Chairman]

However, regular OW and AOW are similar in the sense that neither involves failure-based training where the instructor 'messes' with you and you have to 'survive'.

Many changes in training can be traced back to accidents and law suits. I know for a fact that as an instructor and a divemaster, I have been prohibited from "harassing" students. That being said, I do like to steal gear, with the student's permission, and indicate to them that I will be asking for a mask or a fin sometime during the dive.

 

[Ste Wart]

I did my OW & AOW back to back in Thailand. I later learned that the instructor was a little 'lax' in adhereing to standards. That said, by my 13th dive I was doing buddy dives on the Great Barrier Reef no problem. I was responsible enough to check my own gas, adhere to the dive time limits set by the boat brief and maintain buddy contact throughout the dive.
Unless you go out a do a buddy dive you can't complain about whether or not the instruction was adequate. Too many divers these days; upon finishing the OW course, will say "I'll never dive without DM/Inst". To which we should all really take the card straight back off them as they haven't passed the course.

I'm not a fan of the 5 guided dives approach to the AOW either. I will not give my students a 1 hr deep dive running off my computer as so many others do. You run the tables, so you understand the limits of diving deeper, a factor glossed over too much in a lot of the courses I've seen.

 

[teas]

My OW instructor was great, if i was doing something incorrectly he would; stop, explain what i was doing wrong, what could happen if i done it wrong at depth, show me how to do it correctly and made me copy it 5 times!

I had different instructors of AOW, due to the different sections and again they were all brilliant! I came off those courses knowing exactly what to do in the weirdest of situations! This is probably because i lent a hand at that dive shop on my hols for about 3 weeks, and you get a much better grasp of whats going on - i must have set up X amounts of equipment. For a diver with about 25 dives under my belt, i must have set up over 100 kits in those days.

So YES! i felt my AOW was extremely adequate, even without the shop experience!

 

[Insta-Gator]

The PADI courses sell well but they don't equip a diver with the skills and knowledge necessary to plan and execute a dive safely. An AOW student doesn't get taught how to work as part of a team, plan their gas consumption, undertake a basic rescue, administer CPR or O2, etc, etc. These basic skills are missing from the course so I'd have to say no. This is not to say that the OW/AOW are not great. They can be great courses and meet the needs of a lot of divers. But they don't equip people with the skills I think are necessary to dive safely.

Is this the leading cause of "trust me" dives?

 

[ajtoady]

In both my OW and AOW risks and emergencies were discussed. As far as handling an emergency certain protocols were advised and talked about. Can any one class or agency possibly prepare you for all of them? I think not. To much depends on the individual and his or her thought processes. Another issue I see in most accidents or emergency reported on this site, are an individuals either lack of attention or lack of safety. All the teaching and training in the world can't stop foolish behavior. Could I handle an emergency? I believe I could. I do not however want to find out. I think for the time being I will continue to dive within my limits and training with people that support my line of thinking. I am not afraid of death, but, I am in no rush to get there either.

 

[Zippsy]

hmmmm..... How long is a piece of string? Was my training safe enough (in my assessment, your's or someone else's?) for the dives I was doing (or what someone else was doing or the kind that someone else has in mind?)? I guess that depends on a lot of assumptions and what is in people's mind. I certainly thought my training was enough to be safe for the dives I was doing within my recommended limits. Then again, my "gas planning" was "surface before you get too close to zero. Maybe I was just lucky.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The question isn't whether or not YOUR training was good. The question is whether or not training NOW is adequate.

The bigger question, for those who feel the standards are inadaquate is: Why do you keep teaching a system you feel is fatally flawed????

- Ken

Well ... I think for the most part those who feel that way have been diving for decades and either don't remember how inadequate they really were after their initial class or they're living in a past that never really existed. I've only been diving for 10 years ... and although I have done a lot of diving in 10 years, I still remember what it was like when I was a brand new diver.

Did my OW and AOW classes give me all the skills I wanted or needed to attain? No ... of course not. And frankly, yours didn't either ... especially if you only had TWO open water dives as part of your training. I refuse to believe that Superman was a scuba diver.

My instructor didn't train me to expect that OW/AOW was going to turn me into a competent diver ... he was up-front that competence came with practice, and that the only way to get good at it was to get out and go diving. He was careful about telling us that the most dangerous thing in scuba diving was complacency. He gave us some advice that I continue to give to my new divers ...

- Don't assume you know everything, or ever will know everything.

- Take it slow ... if there's something beyond your training that you need to go see, get the experience and training to go see it properly ... it'll still be there when you're ready.

- Leave your ego on the beach ... it can get you in trouble underwater.

- Give yourself 50 dives to start feeling comfortable ... then go back and question everything you think you know.

- What you don't know can, in fact, hurt you.

- Always question why.

- If it doesn't feel right, don't do it.

I don't think modern scuba training is "fatally flawed" at all ... I think it sets unrealistic expectations. I also think that the thing that's most flawed is the amazingly low prerequisites to become a scuba instructor ... how can someone who can barely dive themselves teach others how to? There's way more to learn than you can possibly achieve in a handful of classes and 100 dives. There's way more to teaching someone else than just regurgitating what you learned in your IDC.

All of these things get back to something Gray said earlier ...

If the industry marketing never existed most people would never assume that diving was something to be taken lightly.

I think, at the root, that's the problem with today's scuba training ... it's marketed as "easy" ... and so people take it too lightly.

... and that's something that EVERY dive instructor has some degree of control over.

If you want to suggest that dive training isn't generally adequate to produce self-sufficient divers ... that it could and SHOULD be better ... and that in general people are given a false sense of security by the way it's marketed ... I'll be first in line to say that you are absolutely correct.

But let's be real ... training in the '70's wasn't perfect. People still died in scuba accidents ... a certain percentage of them still violated what they learned, despite the longer more arduous training, and paid the ultimate price for their lack of good judgment. I know too many people who were trained in that era who, frankly, suck at diving ... either due to poor physical skills or because of a really lousy attitude.

So to answer your question, I teach because I think I can make a difference ... at least with the students I come into contact with. I think every instructor can, regardless of agency or how training is marketed, if they choose to.

In my classes, I don't sugar-coat the risks of diving. I don't set unrealistic expectations about what a particular level of training will produce. I avoid saying things that will give a diver a false sense of security. I don't "push" follow-on classes by telling my students what a great job they're doing or ... as scuba instruction marketers would have you do ... telling everyone they're "a natural" and signing them up for a DM class. I encourage my students to get out and dive ... a lot ... and if they're having trouble finding competent people to dive with call me. I'm really hard to talk into going diving ... it usually takes about three words.

I'm not going to sit back and blame the agencies for the inadequacies in scuba diving today ... I'm tired of reading that sort of logic. The agencies don't teach people how to dive ... dive instructors do. Each and every one of us has the ability to make a difference, and to produce safe, competent divers, if we so choose. The question isn't why we support a "fatally flawed" system ... it's why did we get into scuba instruction in the first place?

Good instructors don't teach to minimum standards, or rely on someone else to tell them what's the right thing to do ... they rely on their own competence and integrity. And that hasn't changed since the "good old days" that some of y'all seem to want us to return to.

Learning doesn't stop when the class is over ... it never did ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

My instructor didn't train me to expect that OW/AOW was going to turn me into a competent diver ... he was up-front that competence came with practice, and that the only way to get good at it was to get out and go diving. He was careful about telling us that the most dangerous thing in scuba diving was complacency. He gave us some advice that I continue to give to my new divers ...

Bob, I couldn't agree more. My instructor told me that AOW was no more than a way to get more time in the water with my instructor that would introduce me to a few new skills.

I have always seen additional training as the place to acquire new skills that needed perfecting by ME. In fact, I remember posting as much in the early days of SB and having many experienced divers applaud the statement. We didn't have a "likes" button back then!

Perfection (demonstration quality) of a skill takes far more time and effort than mastery or competency. I remember my days as an Automotive Technician (mechanic). A lot of people who could pass the ASE (Automotive Service Excellence) tests to become a master technician had no where near the expertise or skill as those of us who had been in the industry a much longer time. Quite often the young bucks would comment "How did you know that?" when I would come up to them as they were trying to diagnose a car. No one ever expected a grease monkey to be a real expert after the first year or even FIVE.

I think, at the root, that's the problem with today's scuba training ... it's marketed as "easy" ... and so people take it too lightly.

But it IS easy, Bob. I think OW training could be even more fun and easy and still be relevant and safer. There are a lot of skills we have to make our students do that have little bearing on reality. Take the CESA (Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent). What is the real sense of doing this? Having to do a CESA means the diver has committed multiple errors and have already abandoned the bulk of their training? Will a person who has forgotten most of their training suddenly remember this traumatic skill from their training? Probably not. How many instructors have become permanently disabled from ear barotrauma suffered from doing this skill 30+ times in a single day? I know at least eight instructors who have had to severely curtail their diving because of this.

To me, the root problem in training is the artificial methodology used. I remember a diver surfacing on their first dive post OW training, asking me why they didn't do any skills. (no, not my student) I teach skills in the pool. Once we hit OW, I am done with skills done in sequence and I want to see them competent in their application WHILE diving. Do I throw in a challenge or ten along the way? Sure. But you won't see me doing a bunch of individual skills in sequential order. Let me see you dive!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My instructor told me that AOW was no more than a way to get more time in the water with my instructor that would introduce me to a few new skills.

My instructor insisted on teaching me things in AOW. I insist on teaching my students things in AOW. That why both my instructor and myself insist that our students go out and do some diving between OW and AOW. Of course, in order for us to make that a reasonable expectation, we have to train them in OW to be able to competently plan and execute some "easy" dives by the time they're OW certified.

I have always seen additional training as the place to acquire new skills that needed perfecting by ME. In fact, I remember posting as much in the early days of SB and having many experienced divers applaud the statement. We didn't have a "likes" button back then!

I see ALL training in that respect ... including OW training. I don't teach my students how to dive ... I teach them how to learn to dive. The learning process only begins in class ... and continues as they apply those skills in their subsequent dives.

Nobody becomes a competent diver in OW class. Oh, some may do an amazing job of learning the physical skills ... but the other, equally important component of diving is judgment ... and that comes with experience. It's the same as when you learned how to drive a car. There's a big difference between learning how to steer and brake vs learning how to drive ... and the majority of the difference involves good decision-making. The reason why car insurance is so much higher for new drivers isn't because of a lack of physical skills ... it's because of a lack of good judgment ... you learn by doing.

But it IS easy,

Depends on where you learn. It's way easier where you dive than where I dive ... at least from a physical skills perspective. That's why people who learn to dive in 7mm farmer johns, hoods, thick gloves, and six feet of vis tend to do so well when they get into a place where they can dive in a 3mm shorty and 60 feet of vis. The judgment calls are similar in either place ... but the physical demands of cold-water diving require more exertion and adaptation than warm-water diving.

I think OW training could be even more fun and easy and still be relevant and safer. There are a lot of skills we have to make our students do that have little bearing on reality. Take the CESA (Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent). What is the real sense of doing this? Having to do a CESA means the diver has committed multiple errors and have already abandoned the bulk of their training? Will a person who has forgotten most of their training suddenly remember this traumatic skill from their training? Probably not.

I tend to agree with this ... which is why I put far more emphasis on not getting to the point where you'd need to consider such a thing. We need to put more emphasis on prevention ... but the self-rescue techniques (I believe) should also still be taught.

I do tell my students that in over 2,700 dives, I've never had to do a CESA ... but that I use my gas management skills on every dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

My instructor insisted on teaching me things in AOW. I insist on teaching my students things in AOW. That why both my instructor and myself insist that our students go out and do some diving between OW and AOW. Of course, in order for us to make that a reasonable expectation, we have to train them in OW to be able to competently plan and execute some "easy" dives by the time they're OW certified.

Well, my AOW instructor was kind of a buffoon. I think he meant well, but there was a huge disconnect between his knowledge and his judgment. Much of what I do now is to compensate for his propensity to break standards put both of us in danger. Still, I think I am using "introduce" in the same way you are using "taught". He "introduced" me to deep planning, the frog kick, and a few other skills in AOW. Unfortunately, "deep" found us 128 ft at the back of Blue Spring (a cave) in complete darkness as we had no lights. Talk about a lapse in judgement!

I see ALL training in that respect ... including OW training. I don't teach my students how to dive ... I teach them how to learn to dive. The learning process only begins in class ... and continues as they apply those skills in their subsequent dives.

We can quibble with terms, but I teach my students to dive in a similar environment with similar conditions. I try to impress on them that the most important part of diving is developing the discretion to know when to call the dive before you get in the water. Running scenarios is a beginning, but the rest is up to them. It's nigh on impossible to train someone to never become complacent. I find trying to alarm them with tails of death and destruction as being disingenuous and less then effective.

Nobody becomes a competent diver in OW class. Oh, some may do an amazing job of learning the physical skills ... but the other, equally important component of diving is judgment ... and that comes with experience. It's the same as when you learned how to drive a car. There's a big difference between learning how to steer and brake vs learning how to drive ... and the majority of the difference involves good decision-making. The reason why car insurance is so much higher for new drivers isn't because of a lack of physical skills ... it's because of a lack of good judgment ... you learn by doing.

Again, we'll have to agree to agree on this. :shocked2: The only exception is that I feel that judgment is THE most important skill of a diver.

Depends on where you learn. It's way easier where you dive than where I dive ... at least from a physical skills perspective. That's why people who learn to dive in 7mm farmer johns, hoods, thick gloves, and six feet of vis tend to do so well when they get into a place where they can dive in a 3mm shorty and 60 feet of vis. The judgment calls are similar in either place ... but the physical demands of cold-water diving require more exertion and adaptation than warm-water diving.

Yes and no, Bob. For an experienced and thoughtful diver, the differences are easy enough to master that you just don't see them. I recall a drowning death on Molasses Reef a few years ago. A cold water diver came down to dive. They were used to a 7mm suit and an aluminum tank. Unfortunately, they used the same weight with a 3 mil shorty and an LP steel. What should have been an incredibly easy dive, cost them their life. It's always advisable for divers to approach new environments by asking a LOT of questions. You might be perfectly ready for your neck of the woods and be in danger in mine. As you mentioned earlier, complacency (as well as hubris) are dangerous attitudes for divers to tolerate in themselves.

I do tell my students that in over 2,700 dives, I've never had to do a CESA ... but that I use my gas management skills on every dive.

Bob, I learned to dive with a j-valve and no SPG. All of my early dives ended with an OOA situation. 99% of the time I had my reserve... but there was always that 100th time when I found that my rod had inadvertently been pulled and I had no air and no buddy. I think that has tempered my view of the Out of Air diver. That being said, since I started using an SPG, I can also say that I have yet to run out. Safety, like freedom requires persistent vigilance.