Agency comparisons

[cowboyneal]

You know, it is very easy to Bash an agency of which you are not a member, but really, if you are not a member of an agency you do not have enough experience one way or the other to say anything about the agency about which you are not a member. Therefore, one should focus on the advantages and disadvantages of the programs one knows first-hand. Also, there is something good (or bad) to be said about any agency/instructor/diver, whomever, and we all have a lot to learn on a day-to-day basis for sure.

One discernable bottom line is this, if any one agency or brand of instructor was better than another, they would be paying LESS for professional liability insurance. Now, before everyone (or one of us) gets all crazy and notes that Vincencia is run by PADI (which it is) the fact is, there are plenty of other dive agencies with related insurance companies that insure their own instructors.

However, the applicable litmus test is the impartial 3d party insurance company. For example, Tim Witherspoon (www.diveinsurance.net) offers an independent insurance program for instructors/divemasters, etc. Regardless of certifying agency, the prices are all the same. If there was some big difference from one to the other, this added risk would be reflected in the cost of coverage, or the fact that instructors from certain agencies would not be afforded coverage.

The same analysis would apply to the comapnies offering dive insurance to divers - the prices are the same regardless of what logo their c-card has on it.

This is the only objective, empirical evidence that I could find and tells me there really is no difference between and among PADI, SSI, NAUI, YMCA, etc., etc. instructors or divers, and I believe that anyone who says there is is just offering an unsupported, and insupportable opinion based on their own, very limited and unscientific factual analysis.

However, I do not disagree that (a) there are bad instructors resident in every agency; and (b) just by sheer numbers (and applying the applicable percentage, i.e. 2% of all dive instructors are bad ones) PADI would therefore carry a proportinately higher number of bad instructors, since it overwhemingly has the higher number of instructors. I also do not disagree that some of our instructors (of many different agencies) are highly skilled, very conscientous and go so far above and beyond minimum standards that they should be lauded as well as referred new divers on a regular basis if only to ensure they stay in business!

Have a great Sunday!

CN

 

[sewcopp]

Minimum standards? Instructors don't put more into a course than they HAVE TO? :06:

If this is what the people who started by loving a sport/recreation and then decided they LOVE to teach it (what they love) to others don't you think the curriculae should be the minimum that no one teaches. If instructors don't love to teach the subject, they should not be there. I'm sure there are lost of other ways they can get underwater and maybe learn to love their SPORT/RECREATION again.

Lots of people are great at an activity but should never teach it. Come-on lets get real here. If your instructor does nothing but say they're organization is the best because of..... or worse yet, another is the worst because of... in my mind if you have a choice go elsewhwere.

Instructors it is your JOB to give the best instruction you can. Not the minimum standards set by anyone and if your not willing/capable of doing this maybe it's time to get behind a desk and away from students that are giving you their money in good faith that you WILL do your best.

That's the problem with the college/university instructor that someone mentioned a few pages ago. They teach so they can have a job and a place to do research, and way to secure funding in an agancy where they can keep their equipment. SPORT/RECREATION is not supposed to be like that.

Sue

"This should fire up the board a little"

 

[sewcopp]

Cowboyneal
I didn't read your post before I posted mine. You put it most eloquantly.

My problem with many agancies (I'm sure it's not just the biggest one) is to get an Advanced diver card (or what ever they call it) you end up paying for up to 5 specialty courses, registraion fees, and c-cards. If you get the five specialty c-cards, why pay for the advanced card. My understanding is that there is precious little training, if any, to get the advanced card at that point. Why don't these agencies offer an all inclusive Advanced course. If the student is going the advanced dive route why have all the extra fees?

What agencies out there offer this option?

Does PADI, NAUI, SSI, SDI/TDI,.......... ACUC does

Sue

 

[Ber Rabbit]

NAUI does not require specialties to get an advanced diver card. The advanced class is a platform to introduce people to the different specialties. There are 6 different dives and each focuses on a different area, navigation, deep and night/low visibility are required the other 3 come from a list and either the students or instructors choose what will be offered. After the advanced class if you liked, say, wreck diving you can take a wreck diving specialty to expand on the "sample" you got in your advanced class. You don't HAVE to take any specialties or you can take specialties in areas that sound interesting to you but were not covered in your particular advanced class for whatever reason.
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[vkalia]

While I don't know much about PADI or NAUI (although I will say that I have seen an inordinate amount of PADI "courses") I am familiar with SSI and SDI/TDI. Between those two, there seems to be a large difference in skill/knowledge requirements. SDI, which takes a lot from NAUI (so I would guess NAUI is similar) requires a lot more in depth knowledge on dive physics and physiology. Whereas in my SSI OW class, we learned that stuff floats or sinks and you have to compensate for that (in a nutshell) the SDI course has you calculate the amount of bouyancy of objects. I thought this most interesting, as it helped me understand the weighting concept much better (no more magic or trial and error weighting, I can figure it out pretty dang close now).

I'd be curious to know how - do you actually calculate your weighting by doing a theoretical calculation?

I have an engineering degree, and honors physics/math background in college, and i still find it easiest to adjust my weighting by getting in the water and twiddling around with it.

And everyone seems to put the onus on the dive agency to prepare better divers - whatever happened to individuals taking responsibility for bettering themselves???

One thing I have learned over the years -- if the student is not going to dive and practice his skills, he or she will never become a good diver regardless of the standards; on the other hand, if a student wants to become a proficient diver, s/he can do so with any agency.

Vandit

 

[vkalia]

The Master Diver is the new Advanced Diver. When asked, I tell others that one should take AOW after fifteen to twenty-five dives. The Master programs are great, really gets a diver a lot of time with an instructor diving different specialties. A Master C-card states, at the least, that one continuaaly dives and wants to learn.

I think a Master Diver card is a waste of time and money - Boat Diver? Drift Diver? U/W Photographer? GMAFB. That tells me nothing about how the diver will behave in a current, or while boarding a bouncy boat, or while diving on a deep wall.

To me, number of dives coupled with no. of years diving is the best indicator of a diver's skill and ability (though there are some rather gloriously memorable exceptions!) - certainly far more reliable than the number of cards held by them.

Vandit

 

[steveann]

I'd be curious to know how - do you actually calculate your weighting by doing a theoretical calculation?

I have an engineering degree, and honors physics/math background in college, and i still find it easiest to adjust my weighting by getting in the water and twiddling around with it.

And everyone seems to put the onus on the dive agency to prepare better divers - whatever happened to individuals taking responsibility for bettering themselves???



Vandit

It's a theoretical calculation using the actual weight of the object and the weight of the water displaced by the object, and while it is not the easiest thing in the world to do (i.e figuring out how much water I displace), it is kind of neat to use. It kind of ties into my engineering background. At least, it gives me another equation to shove into my overfilled head.

And you're right, I do find it easiest to just "jump in and fiddle", but it's nice to know that I was pretty darn close using my head and some simple math, and it lets me have to fiddle less.

Also, I totally agree with it being the individual's responsibility to learn how to dive properly. I just have realized that different agencies have takent he standards they are required to meet and have either just met them, or have exceeded them. And granted, you don't need 32 pieces of flair to be a good diver, but sometimes a little extra knowledge is a benefit to you, and you're associates.

 

[www.scubamazing.com]

I've been wondering about these comparisons.

It seems most people feel:

• Padi is focused on activites that will teach students, but cost them more money too.
• Other Agencies just want to make sure the students obtain necessary skills.

Am I interpreting this correctly? I usually just run into PADI divers, it is nice to hear what else is out there and that the other agencies are thriving.

 

[daniel f aleman]

NAUI Master Diver is akin to Divemaster training without the instructor developement, most NAUI shops really put a lot into the Master Diver Course; much better than the Master Courses from PADI or SSI.

 

[Tavi]

NAUI Master Diver is akin to Divemaster training without the instructor developement, most NAUI shops really put a lot into the Master Diver Course; much better than the Master Courses from PADI or SSI.

Maybe akin, but not really compareable. There is a lot more knowledge gained in the Master Diver course than in Divemaster. Physics, Physiology, etc. Also Hands on stuff like shooting lift bags and simulated deco (at least with the shop I work with, we train above standards).

If you're taking the class to learn more about diving, Master Diver is the class to take.