AOW/Rescue Diver Not Respected

[Lorenzoid]

It would be completely possible to pass the drivers test and have a license for the rest of your life without ever getting behind the wheel. Many people have licenses and seldom drive.

I think if ENOUGH people who seldom drive got injured in accidents, there would be a push to tighten up the driving license requirements. For example, annual re-testing might be imposed. I believe that in some states, elderly drivers are required to undergo more frequent re-testing. It seems to me that, whether it's supported by statistics or just an unfounded fear, dive operators implicitly believe that enough people who seldom dive are getting injured to warrant checking their skills out or taking other precautions so as to avoid taking them on dives that challenge their abilities.

Anyway, the driving license analogy has to go back to the question of who is liable. If the person who seldom drives goes off driving by himself and nobody else is involved, it's clear the liability for an accident would fall on him as opposed to some other party. But if we consider some hypothetical scenario in which some other party, such as a car rental agency, could be argued to have control over what roads the driver takes, how fast he drives, etc, then it's less clear whether that other party could get off the hook for liability in the event the driver has an accident simply by saying "he showed me a valid driver's license." If that kind of scenario were common enough, then I think we would see car rental agencies doing more than just checking the renter's license.

 

[scubadada]

...I think we would see car rental agencies doing more than just checking the renter's license.

...and credit card number

 

[Aguablanco1]

"A diver's license must be renewed periodically, and can be taken away. It is indeed a license, not a certificate that one took a driver's ed course and has not driven since. Bad analogy. Try again."

Actually, I live in Arizona and your initial license is good until 65 years old with no interim renewals. I believe you understood my my post but are deciding to be disingenuous. The point is, if we all have to prove we can dive every time we go out what is the purpose of the C-card other than agency and instructor enrichment? It should be worth some measure of respect and/or trust. If the instructors feel it necessary to do a specific check out dive it should be gratis, stated in advance, not interfere with our dive schedule and, at the least, be an interesting dive.
RichH

 

[tursiops]

"A diver's license must be renewed periodically, and can be taken away. It is indeed a license, not a certificate that one took a driver's ed course and has not driven since. Bad analogy. Try again."

Actually, I live in Arizona and your initial license is good until 65 years old with no interim renewals. I believe you understood my my post but are deciding to be disingenuous. The point is, if we all have to prove we can dive every time we go out what is the purpose of the C-card other than agency and instructor enrichment? It should be worth some measure of respect and/or trust. If the instructors feel it necessary to do a specific check out dive it should be gratis, stated in advance, not interfere with our dive schedule and, at the least, be an interesting dive.
RichH

Yes, that's what you have already said. It appears most of us disagree with you .

 

[Aguablanco1]

That's the nice thing about America, at least for now, we don't have to all agree, and we can vote with our feet and wallet regarding the dive ops we use.
RichH

 

[runsongas]

I think a better suited name is the democratic people of California

Democratic People's Republic of Kalifornia

 

[Lorenzoid]

The point is, if we all have to prove we can dive every time we go out what is the purpose of the C-card other than agency and instructor enrichment?

As stated in previous posts, the point of the C-card is that it is SOME evidence that you know what you're doing, just not conclusive evidence.

It should be worth some measure of respect and/or trust.

There you have it. The dive op DOES give it some measure of respect and trust. But the dive op just doesn't consider it carte blanche for the diver to do whatever he wants so long as the diver is still under the care of the dive op. In instances in which the diver is not under the care of the dive op after he leaves the shop, such as getting an air fill, the dive op does consider the C-card 100% sufficient for that purpose.

If the instructors feel it necessary to do a specific check out dive it should be gratis, stated in advance, not interfere with our dive schedule and, at the least, be an interesting dive.

That pretty much describes the check-out dives I have done. The check-out dive was the first dive of the trip, built into the dive itinerary (and thus no extra cost), well understood by most of us as being a soft introduction to the rest of our diving, and rarely the least interesting dive of the trip.

 

[gcarter]

I understand what you are saying, but only if I take into account the fact this:

You are advertising on your website and presumably in your shop that you offer PADI certification. I assume because you believe PADI certification to be a good thing to sell to your customer, and you will likely tell them something to the effect of PADI certification is accepted all over the world. Some of those customers you might sell more advanced training to over open water. I think it's likely even, given that you specialize in technical training. Fast forward to a month or a year later when that customer who trusted you goes to an operator somewhere else who has not heard of Andy Davis. They schedule a dive and are told... we don't know you, and don't trust that Andy Davis or PADI has actually done their job in training you. You must first pay us to do a checkout dive before you can do any other diving with us. If your skills are lacking, we can sell you a PADI refresher (or some other course). That course will obviously be accepted at PADI operators all over the world.

You should be angry at PADI, not your customers.

Basically, you're saying that certifications issued by big certification agencies are worthless. Yet, you sell such certifications yourself.

I used PADI as an example because it's what you list on your website. AFAIK, the situation is the same with all agencies. It's an ugly situation that costs divers money and time. I live with it, as I said. I have seen folks get angry about it, both on scubaboard and in person. I don't think they're wrong to get angry, really.

The certifications are not worthless. They are proof of training and fill that function well.

What they are not is proof of competency. The best proof of that is demonstration -a check out dive.

 

[gcarter]

So what would you expect the agency to do to change this? Andy's argument is that someone can have the best training the world, but unpracticed skills degrade. Most people don't practice skills. He's right.

Without going to the extent of requiring an annual skills review to maintain certification, how can you guarantee that someone can still perform at their certified level? Comparatively, a checkout dive on a vacation doesn't seem like a big ask.

Certification - as proof of training - properly does not need to be renewed. It is not a license. Do you need to renew your HS certificate? That fancy one you received from your college or university? They don't speak to current competence either.

Any dive op has the right to ask for proof of current training (death knell). But personally I would rather do a check out dive than pad training revenues for any agency or LDS.

 

[Subcooled]

I have been an AOW and Rescue Diver for several years now and, (...) dive ops will still require check out dives or even withhold going to certain spots until I have proven myself in their eyes. It seems to me that for many dive ops AOW and RD really mean nothing.
RichH

I understand your frustration, but:

New environment, new equipment, distracted by work related stress, trying to meet non-existent expectations, not been diving for a while, too small fins, pending sea sickness... there are numerous causes not visible on a certification card that can trigger some "interesting" events. Sometimes it is also good to check that underwater team communication works well before diving that wreck for example.