bp/w harness type and time of use

[SherlTheperl]

I am sure it is a consideration. I would guess, however, that the primary reason that simple single-piece harness is very popular is because it follows the cave/technical diving concept of task-focused minimalism. This concept is especially prominent within the Hogarthian and DIR methodologies.

The conversion of these technical methodologies into recreational diving has proven to be considerably attractive to those recreational divers who have an above-average interest in perfecting their dive skills and maximising safety through the investigation and adoption of 'best practice' learning.

With regard to your response of following cave/tech diving concept, It then begs the question of how many of these people who have never tried different styles are people that learn of the cave/tech connection and adopt using the single piece harness because they are wanna-bees that just think that is what it take to look cool and never progressing to the point of learning the other skills to take up cave or tech diving.
Not that I'm suggesting that about anyone here.

 

[SherlTheperl]

What stands out for me is the ~2 in 25 (8%) that sought out a "comfort" harness after starting with a single piece.

It's reasonable to assume some of this 8% may not have had the benefit of good mentoring / instruction on how to set up and use a single piece harness.

Of course with so few data points the margin of error will be large.

If you take the time to click on the result you can get a list of the users under each result.
I decided to take a look at the profiles of each of the divers in that group.
It seems judging from that info the majority are highly experienced divers.
Why would you assume that a lack of good mentoring or instruction would be the reason for their choice?

 

[DevonDiver]

With regard to your response of following cave/tech diving concept, It then begs the question of how many of these people who have never tried different styles are people that learn of the cave/tech connection and adopt using the single piece harness because they are wanna-bees that just think that is what it take to look cool and never progressing to the point of learning the other skills to take up cave or tech diving.

Never mind single-piece harnesses.... that the best continuous single-piece sentance I've seen for a while!

Joking aside,... there is a danger that the 'best practice' mind-set within the tech diving community could lead to novice tech divers being taught not to think independantly about their equipment choices and configurations.

I think that was certainly true when the DIR mind-set first hit the internet. It is was an excellent methodology, with a first-class development pedigree and it diligently covered every eventuality. However, it also risked taking decision-making responsibility away from the divers and keeping it within a (very capapable) minority.

Tech diving is inherently risky. As such, issues like comfort and 'image' should take a second place to function and performance. When tech divers use this equipment and put their lives on the line with it, the experience does make them more 'blow-hard' about issues than a recreational diver ever would be.

It is entirely natural that a section of the recreational market would recognise the benefits of adapting and integrating the tech diving mind-set and 'best practices' into their recreational diving activities. Those people are generally the ones who are concerned about eliminating risk and making their hobby as safe as possible.

It is also true that tech diving has an undeniable 'mystique' amongst the wider recreational diving community. Most recreational divers have little contact with tech diving, other than to occasionally see them on a dive boat or see pictures in dive magazines.

This 'mystique' has developed a trend towards 'lookalike' dive gear. Black equipment and wetsuits are certainly the new 'neon'. Likewise, the equipment manufacturers were not hesitant to 'jump on the bandwagon' and exploit the 'tech mystique' to increase their sales. However...this isn't through single-piece harnesses. The wannabies don't like them...and probably never heard of them.

What the tech wannabies crave is the 'faux tech' rubbish that flooded the market.

Ask yourself... just how many BCDs, masks, regs, knives are on the market now that have the words 'Tec', 'Tech' or 'Tek' in their names? How many are black? How may are covered in superfluous D-rings, pockets, bungees etc?

Here's a selection of the dive industry's most most embarrasing 'faux tech' marketed products, that you won't find on the WKPP or hanging from a deco trapeze over the Andrea Doria....

1) The Aquatech Luigi 'Tec'. :shocked2:

• 8 Stainless Steel Shoulder D-Rings gives this "Tec" BCD many mounting locations​
• Elastic straps automatically pull in back inflation air-cells when deflated to reduce drag​
• 4 Over Pressure / Dump Valves (Can be configured to suit the divers specific preferences)​

2) Scubapro X-Tek BCD

3) Soprasub Speleo 110 'Tec' Wing

4) Beuchat Masterlift X-Air Tek BCD

and last, but not least.... my favorite example of mis-informed, cynical 'faux tech' advertising.....

5) Eagle Z-1 Tech

• The Eagle Z1 Tech: Better Materials, Twice the Features, and 1/2 the Price.
• Designed to function equally well with BOTH single and twin cylinders...
• Created to fill the gap between the "Not enough, and way too much" problem..
• Perfect for the advanced, cold water wreck, cave and tech divers...
• Having enough lift is a big deal, and this provides 60 pounds!
• Automatic Low Risk Wing Retractors have adjustable force and keep your drag low.
• Proven Fully Adjustable Harness with Ten (10) Stainless Steal D-Rings!

 

[danvolker]

Never mind single-piece harnesses.... that the best continuous single-piece sentance I've seen for a while!

Joking aside,... there is a danger that the 'best practice' mind-set within the tech diving community could lead to novice tech divers being taught not to think independantly about their equipment choices and configurations.

I think that was certainly true when the DIR mind-set first hit the internet. It is was an excellent methodology, with a first-class development pedigree and it diligently covered every eventuality. However, it also risked taking decision-making responsibility away from the divers and keeping it within a (very capapable) minority.

Tech diving is inherently risky. As such, issues like comfort and 'image' should take a second place to function and performance. When tech divers use this equipment and put their lives on the line with it, the experience does make them more 'blow-hard' about issues than a recreational diver ever would be.

It is entirely natural that a section of the recreational market would recognise the benefits of adapting and integrating the tech diving mind-set and 'best practices' into their recreational diving activities. Those people are generally the ones who are concerned about eliminating risk and making their hobby as safe as possible.

It is also true that tech diving has an undeniable 'mystique' amongst the wider recreational diving community. Most recreational divers have little contact with tech diving, other than to occasionally see them on a dive boat or see pictures in dive magazines.

This 'mystique' has developed a trend towards 'lookalike' dive gear. Black equipment and wetsuits are certainly the new 'neon'. Likewise, the equipment manufacturers were not hesitant to 'jump on the bandwagon' and exploit the 'tech mystique' to increase their sales. However...this isn't through single-piece harnesses. The wannabies don't like them...and probably never heard of them.

What the tech wannabies crave is the 'faux tech' rubbish that flooded the market.

Ask yourself... just how many BCDs, masks, regs, knives are on the market now that have the words 'Tec', 'Tech' or 'Tek' in their names? How many are black? How may are covered in superfluous D-rings, pockets, bungees etc?

Here's a selection of the dive industry's most most embarrasing 'faux tech' marketed products, that you won't find on the WKPP or hanging from a deco trapeze over the Andrea Doria....

1) The Aquatech Luigi 'Tec'. :shocked2:

• 8 Stainless Steel Shoulder D-Rings gives this "Tec" BCD many mounting locations​
• Elastic straps automatically pull in back inflation air-cells when deflated to reduce drag​
• 4 Over Pressure / Dump Valves (Can be configured to suit the divers specific preferences)​

2) Scubapro X-Tek BCD

3) Soprasub Speleo 110 'Tec' Wing

4) Beuchat Masterlift X-Air Tek BCD

and last, but not least.... my favorite example of mis-informed, cynical 'faux tech' advertising.....

5) Eagle Z-1 Tech

• The Eagle Z1 Tech: Better Materials, Twice the Features, and 1/2 the Price.
• Designed to function equally well with BOTH single and twin cylinders...
• Created to fill the gap between the "Not enough, and way too much" problem..
• Perfect for the advanced, cold water wreck, cave and tech divers...
• Having enough lift is a big deal, and this provides 60 pounds!
• Automatic Low Risk Wing Retractors have adjustable force and keep your drag low.
• Proven Fully Adjustable Harness with Ten (10) Stainless Steal D-Rings!

Andy,
I think you are spot on with this...Also, I think there is the issue of "dumbing down gear sales"...by adding in the "adjustment straps", a shop or diver "would require less" fitting knowledge to get the diver able to wear the bp/wing....From a mass marketing perspective, this seems like a powerful driving force.
To a person who has never seen a Halcyon rig set up for SOMEONE, from the beginning, imagining the difficulty involved would be automatic.... and without knowing anything, rigging the unit really would be a mess.
As most of us in ths thread know, the knowledge of how to do this, makes the fitting very easy...easy to attain a really PERFECT FIT.


With this in mind, one of the issues I would add to the list of REASONS TO AVOID the extra strpas for adjustment, is the PROBABILITY that this will allow your bp/wing to be sloppilly rigged, allowing it to sit wrong on your torso, and the adjustment strap will "allow" you to use the system anyway---this should be expected to create a much WORSE functioning system, because the perfect fit has MANY advantages in optimal trim, optimal placement of gear being routed, and so many small points that will add up together to become an overall mess.



Regards,
Dan

 

[DennisS]

Clutching at straws.......

How can you look at a 80% / 20% split and deduce that the minority was significant?

If advising someone what option to choose first, then it is entirely logical to suggest the cheapest and most popular option available.

Nobody is trying to 'convert' anyone here. But, when asked for advice, some of us attempt to provide the most cost-effect and likely solution to the users dilema.

Comfort harness is only favoured by 1 in 5 BP&W divers. Of those, nearly half have not tried a basic harness. Comfort harness is approximately 4-6 times more expensive than a basic harness.

To recommend that to a newbie would be totally illogical. I just couldn't comprehend why or how anyone could recommend a comfort harness as an initial purchase.

In contrast, 8 out of 10 BP&W divers prefer a single-piece harness. It serves their purpose and costs less than a single tank dive charter...

The basic single-piece harness is undeniably the best option to choose, when first moving to BP&W.

The Dive Rite Deluxe harness is $36, hardly a consideration when buying a new rig.

Dive Rite Deluxe Harness reviews and discounts, Dive Rite

My advice would be go with just the webbing, it's inexpensive, try it out. If you don't like it, there are other options. I'd been diving the Hog rig for about two years, I didn't like the twisting to put it on and off but figured I didn't have a choice. I saw someone with the Dive Rite Deluxe on a boat. I bought one and haven't regretted it.

 

[DevonDiver]

The Dive Rite Deluxe harness is $36, hardly a consideration when buying a new rig.

That's nice and cheap

It's still $10 cheaper for a HOG harness ($26) though. The only difference between the two is a chest strap...

The Transpac Harness is a different proposition. THAT was the sort of expensive kit I was drawing attention to...and the sort of design that most companies describe as 'comfort/deluxe harness'.... on sale at only $375.00 :shocked2:

Hog for $26. Deluxe (Transpac) for $375. Hmmmm......

 

[fnfalman]

That's nice and cheap

It's still $10 cheaper for a HOG harness ($26) though. The only difference between the two is a chest strap...

The Transpac Harness is a different proposition. THAT was the sort of expensive kit I was drawing attention to...and the sort of design that most companies describe as 'comfort/deluxe harness'.... on sale at only $375.00 :shocked2:

Hog for $26. Deluxe (Transpac) for $375. Hmmmm......

Hmmm...the Transpac doesn't need a backplate.

How much is a backplate?

The Transpac can be adapted for rebreather mount.

The Transpac can be easily adapted for sidemount.

The Transpac eases the pain of carrying a heavy load over long distances...you know, like scrambling up a smallish path to get to a cave spot...the things that Dive Rite people do for fun.

But hey, I'm sure that the Dive Rite people don't know nuthin' about no fancy divin'.

 

[DevonDiver]

fnfalman..... your only contribution to this debate seems to be repeatedly posting a sarcastic sentence, followed every time with a picture of Lamar Hires.

Whilst I do admire your lovely photo collection of Lamar, it doesn't really make any point.

For instance, you are so stuck on this 'auto-repeat' routine that you didn't even notice I was only talking about relative cost of harnesses. I would fully expect that Lamar Hires, the CEO of Diverite, would not have a cost issue with getting hold of a transplate! lmao

Oh yes.... and you can use a HOG harness and metal backplate very well with CCR.

 

[fnfalman]

fnfalman..... your only contribution to this debate seems to be repeatedly posting a sarcastic sentence, followed every time with a picture of Lamar Hires.

Whilst I do admire your lovely photo collection of Lamar, it doesn't really make any point.

You like to pontificate about how YOUR way of equipment selection is the way to go.

I simply show otherwise. If there is not a need for a Transpac then the Dive Rite people wouldn't have made it and used it themselves.

Sure, they're in the business for sales and profits but they also put their lives and their reputations on the line by using their gears (these supposed inferior designs claims made by you and others) in the most difficult dive conditions.

Since that I'm not a badass diver and probably never be, I have to use Dive Rite's examples of badass diving in order to defend their products. You see, Dive Rite is a classy joint. They don't go on internet forums to get into pissing contests with other divers and manufacturers. They don't insinuate that other manufacturers or divers don't know what they're doing or not as good as them.

However since that I'm not Dive Rite but a devout customer (one can even say that I'm a fanboy of Dive Rite BCs), I feel that it's my mission to enlighten new divers into the greatness that is Dive Rite.

For instance, you are so stuck on this 'auto-repeat' routine that you didn't even notice I was only talking about relative cost of harnesses. I would fully expect that Lamar Hires, the CEO of Diverite, would not have a cost issue with getting hold of a transplate! lmao

His costs are not money directly out of his wallet when he grab a Transpac or Transplate. His costs are the risks of his own death and the risk of his company's reputation and his own reputation as a diver.

Oh yes.... and you can use a HOG harness and metal backplate very well with CCR.

I've seen a poodle jacket rigged up to take a CCR to, so what's your point?

 

[tomboyy]

You like to pontificate about how YOUR way of equipment selection is the way to go.
I simply show otherwise. If there is not a need for a Transpac then the Dive Rite people wouldn't have made it and used it themselves.

Sure, they're in the business for sales and profits but they also put their lives and their reputations on the line by using their gears (these supposed inferior designs claims made by you and others) in the most difficult dive conditions.

Since that I'm not a badass diver and probably never be, I have to use Dive Rite's examples of badass diving in order to defend their products. You see, Dive Rite is a classy joint. They don't go on internet forums to get into pissing contests with other divers and manufacturers. They don't insinuate that other manufacturers or divers don't know what they're doing or not as good as them.

However since that I'm not Dive Rite but a devout customer (one can even say that I'm a fanboy of Dive Rite BCs), I feel that it's my mission to enlighten new divers into the greatness that is Dive Rite.



His costs are not money directly out of his wallet when he grab a Transpac or Transplate. His costs are the risks of his own death and the risk of his company's reputation and his own reputation as a diver.



I've seen a poodle jacket rigged up to take a CCR to, so what's your point?

well said

some people just have to tell you how superior their equipment is over yours

"oohh your not doing it right, do it like me and you to can be the best" < this said snickering in my best whinny little girl voice>