"buy equipment here" speech in OW first class!
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Scuby Dooby
Guest
Warren,
If I had an instructor who was so unaware of diving that he only knew the brands sold in his shop and was unable to name any others . . . i'd run . . . fast.
If I had an instructor who was so unaware of diving that he only knew the brands sold in his shop and was unable to name any others . . . i'd run . . . fast.
LDS owners are the bad guys here. In most dive shops Instructors are instructed by the owners to sell their (the shops brands) gear. Some shops give the instructors commissions, some simply give them jobs, some give them free or heavily discounted gear, but don't be fooled - the Instructor has some motive. The "sales" pitch during class ranges from subtle to outright hurricane force. It always includes lies about how much better their brand/s is/are vs. that brand, about how you won't get warranties if you buy online, etc. etc.. Your challenge as a new diver is to do your homework - and I don't just mean study your open water materials. I mean look around, ask fellow divers, read posts on this board, read reputable dive magazines etc...
As an Instructor I will not teach for a shop that makes me push inferior brands of equipment. For that matter I won't teach for a shop that pushes any brand of equipment. I tell my students what I use and why and I tell them to base their decisions on the type of diving they will be doing, their current budget and to give some consideration to what type of diving they might be doing 2-5 years from now. The reality is that spending a little more money for top notch gear now may keep you from upgrading (spending twice as much by buying two sets) in 2 - 5 years. The reality is that a good BCD and regulators, fins, mask and snorkel will likely last a lifetime of diving... my wife is still diving her same stuff she bought 15 years ago... not because of a lack of money... but because she bought top quality stuff and has never had a problem with it.
Generally speaking you will find gear at much better prices with full warranties somewhere on the internet. With all that said, I recognize the need for local dive shops and I support them when I can. I always suggest coming up with a rule you can live with. My rule is simple. I will give a local dive shop 20% more for most purchases I make. This means if I can buy regs on the internet for $250, I'll buy them for $300 at my LDS. If they can't (won't) come within 20% of the internet price, they lose the sale. Generally they all have the ability to get within 20% of internet prices (and still turn a profit) with only very few exceptions.
Don't blame the Instructor for the sales pitch and don't waste your time complaining to the owner. Believe me the owner is behind it... and the two of them will just get together and cuss you when you leave. Try to enjoy your class and the beginnings of a great adventure... You may never make it to the moon... but who needs the moon when you've got a world covered 3/4's in water to explore... Happy Diving!
Ken Barrick
As an Instructor I will not teach for a shop that makes me push inferior brands of equipment. For that matter I won't teach for a shop that pushes any brand of equipment. I tell my students what I use and why and I tell them to base their decisions on the type of diving they will be doing, their current budget and to give some consideration to what type of diving they might be doing 2-5 years from now. The reality is that spending a little more money for top notch gear now may keep you from upgrading (spending twice as much by buying two sets) in 2 - 5 years. The reality is that a good BCD and regulators, fins, mask and snorkel will likely last a lifetime of diving... my wife is still diving her same stuff she bought 15 years ago... not because of a lack of money... but because she bought top quality stuff and has never had a problem with it.
Generally speaking you will find gear at much better prices with full warranties somewhere on the internet. With all that said, I recognize the need for local dive shops and I support them when I can. I always suggest coming up with a rule you can live with. My rule is simple. I will give a local dive shop 20% more for most purchases I make. This means if I can buy regs on the internet for $250, I'll buy them for $300 at my LDS. If they can't (won't) come within 20% of the internet price, they lose the sale. Generally they all have the ability to get within 20% of internet prices (and still turn a profit) with only very few exceptions.
Don't blame the Instructor for the sales pitch and don't waste your time complaining to the owner. Believe me the owner is behind it... and the two of them will just get together and cuss you when you leave. Try to enjoy your class and the beginnings of a great adventure... You may never make it to the moon... but who needs the moon when you've got a world covered 3/4's in water to explore... Happy Diving!
Ken Barrick
bp_968:
bp_968:
If you weren't in Ohio, I'd swear you went to the same lds as me... Went through everything you just described... "our brands are best" "online is crap" ...
It was to the point where it became uncomfortable... I hate being pressured....!!
I did buy a large portion of my gear from them, but only after I checked into the quality of it AND I was ready to buy.
toodive4:
Wow, that's terribly cynical and downright scary if it is indeed the norm for lds' in your area.
Yes, I would like my instructors to sell the gear we have in the shops for obvious reasons...but not every student will find gear to suit their needs and instructors should be able to advise properly. No instructor/shop should trash something for the sole reason that it isn't on their commission/sales sheet.
It is shortsighted for an owner/manager/instructor to be pissy about not selling gear they stock to OW students...good, solid, respectable service will serve much better in the long run.
I would want to know, as an owner, if a student felt that the instructor was over the top, aggressive or dismissive! Owners/instructors as you describe are a discredit to the whole industry and shouldn't be getting any of your dollars or time.
offroaddiver
Guest
It has been brought to my attention that there are several manufactures that will not honor the warantees unless it was sold at a liscensed store and that the store did not arrange the warantee information via fax, email or telephone. I do not know if these practices are still true. I found out this information when looking at warantees online as a way to determine between two different regulators. Surprising at it may seem at first I called the information line and all I could get was what I assumed the answer they would give me might be. "We have had difficulties with email and catalog based retail stores in the past. If the store is a liscensed dealer and the deal was arranged via telecommunication, we will indeed honor the warantee as long as the warantee card enclosed with the factory packaging was signed by a representative and the purchaser."
With all that aside...I have and several others have bought gear from mainly online retail stores and the equipment is the same but often cheaper or not carried by the lds. A phylosophy that you can take when dealing with this is either " you get what you paid for","buyer be ware" and to quote the local used car lot..."as is:NO WARANTEE!"
In your case it sounds as if the dive instructor may in fact be looking at the empty space in his wallet before giving the advice. Luckily there are numerous dive shops in my area to "listen to the sales pitches." Most of the employees know that if I hear a completely unsupported statement about another company's product. I have confronted the employee and then informed the owner of the said badmouthing and if they have said something off beat to me I will leave. I have done this numerous times before and left over 3 grand of merchandise for them to restock. Do I suggest this approach? If you know the owners and they are there on a fairly good basis, I would talk with the owner and let them know where you stand. If you show them concern, respect, and sometimes the banking statement (just kidding but if it works....) you will see results.
But look at it from another view. If you want good things in return you sometimes have to deal with the advertisement and horse apples. I got a freebie tank refill at my most visited dive shop the other day just because I came in and talked with the owner gave him some business.
If the instructor is really laying it on thick just talk to him in private.
But here's the best part. When you get that c-card you don't have to deal with that particular instructor again unless you want his instruction again.
I know people will correct me and say my point of view is flawed but all I'm giving is my point of view.
If you have to go to a coffee shop and give them my opinion and 3$ you'll atleast get a cup of capacino and maybe some conversation or harsh looks.
With all that aside...I have and several others have bought gear from mainly online retail stores and the equipment is the same but often cheaper or not carried by the lds. A phylosophy that you can take when dealing with this is either " you get what you paid for","buyer be ware" and to quote the local used car lot..."as is:NO WARANTEE!"
In your case it sounds as if the dive instructor may in fact be looking at the empty space in his wallet before giving the advice. Luckily there are numerous dive shops in my area to "listen to the sales pitches." Most of the employees know that if I hear a completely unsupported statement about another company's product. I have confronted the employee and then informed the owner of the said badmouthing and if they have said something off beat to me I will leave. I have done this numerous times before and left over 3 grand of merchandise for them to restock. Do I suggest this approach? If you know the owners and they are there on a fairly good basis, I would talk with the owner and let them know where you stand. If you show them concern, respect, and sometimes the banking statement (just kidding but if it works....) you will see results.
But look at it from another view. If you want good things in return you sometimes have to deal with the advertisement and horse apples. I got a freebie tank refill at my most visited dive shop the other day just because I came in and talked with the owner gave him some business.
If the instructor is really laying it on thick just talk to him in private.
But here's the best part. When you get that c-card you don't have to deal with that particular instructor again unless you want his instruction again.
I know people will correct me and say my point of view is flawed but all I'm giving is my point of view.
If you have to go to a coffee shop and give them my opinion and 3$ you'll atleast get a cup of capacino and maybe some conversation or harsh looks.
Scuba
Contributor
You did say he is an instructor? Hhmmm?
All in all, he is basically out to save you from yourself and the harsh cruel world out there out of the kindness of his heart.
Sure sounds like a wanna be slick shyster of a salesman in disguise to me. Ok, so maybe instructing is his side gig. It brings in new impressionable wooley sheep to the slaughterhouse, eerrrrr.. I meant, knowledgable, conscientious customers to the commendable LDS.
I think someone said run....... FASTER - FASTER
After reading your post, I only have one question. Why would you have anything to do with someone like this when it comes to life support matters?
Or, you can come up with another one of the many reasons given in this thread to excuse this type of reprehensible behavior devoid of creditbility. According to many divers, in this sport, you have a moral duty to support the LDS's that screw you over and over and over - and like it. Don't forget, you owe them. Always come back for more with a big smile on your face and plenty of cash. Just say YES. In turn, they will roll out the red carpet for your next fleecing, eeerrrrr purchase, and if your lucky, they'l even teach not to drown. There's a period at the end of the sentence. LOL.
All said partly in jest. Unfortunately, sometimes it's all too true.
Everything in his shop is - GOOD. Anything not in his shop either doesn't exist or is - BAD.bp_968:
All in all, he is basically out to save you from yourself and the harsh cruel world out there out of the kindness of his heart.
Sure sounds like a wanna be slick shyster of a salesman in disguise to me. Ok, so maybe instructing is his side gig. It brings in new impressionable wooley sheep to the slaughterhouse, eerrrrr.. I meant, knowledgable, conscientious customers to the commendable LDS.
I think someone said run....... FASTER - FASTER
bp_968:
After reading your post, I only have one question. Why would you have anything to do with someone like this when it comes to life support matters?
Or, you can come up with another one of the many reasons given in this thread to excuse this type of reprehensible behavior devoid of creditbility. According to many divers, in this sport, you have a moral duty to support the LDS's that screw you over and over and over - and like it. Don't forget, you owe them. Always come back for more with a big smile on your face and plenty of cash. Just say YES. In turn, they will roll out the red carpet for your next fleecing, eeerrrrr purchase, and if your lucky, they'l even teach not to drown. There's a period at the end of the sentence. LOL.
All said partly in jest. Unfortunately, sometimes it's all too true.
PhotoTJ
Contributor
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Several shops in SoCal have you sign a 'buying commitment' when signing up for classes, (including Sport Chalet), stating you will buy your personal gear from them by the first pool session, (fins,mask, snorkel, gloves, booties, hood), or they will refund your tuition less the book costs, and send you elsewhere.
PhotoTJ:
I'm glad I didn't get roped into one of those deals... wow! I had no idea dive shops did that here :11:
sharpenu
Contributor
My LDS requires instructors to push their gear. When I tried to help the shop as an assistant inst, so I could get some free diving, they told me I could only wear stuff that the shop sold. I don't assist any more.
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