Buying a New Regulator

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Really? Care to share?
Not online I don't... Grab your phone! :wink:

Another thing I like about HOG regs is that you can specify what sort of hoses you want with the reg setup. All other manufacturers' regs come with standard "recreational" length hoses, which many of us ditch for other lengths - or the Myflex hoses. I think it's super-cool (and great marketing) that I can order a set of regs directly from HOG with my choice of hoses. That way, I'm only paying for what I actually want, rather than paying for hoses twice.
That's actually incorrect, because only certain dealers ship your CHOICE of hoses with the regs, since the regs are actually sold without any hoses, and only as individual components rather than always as a 1st and 2nd stage set. Anyone that's replaceing regs already has what is more than likely a perfectly good set of hoses that they have removed from their older reg set, or like me you're buying a full set of Miflex to use. Either way you're right though in that you're not wasting money for something that will simply get tossed aside in a spare parts box that is full of junk that you'll never actually use.

-Tim
 
RE: HOG

Very interesting results! I'll have to take another look at their product line for my next purchase. I bought my grandson one of the inexpensive Edge Epic regulators figuring he would be dragging it in the sand. As long as I can get the HOG with an environmental kit, it can make the short list.

I had originally thought to give him the spare Dive Rite Hurricane or perhaps just buy a Mk17/G250V. Now I'll have to actually make a choice.

Richard
 
Yep, not too shabby huh..? :D

This is precisely why I bought them, because they have made the info readily available to us all.

When I first bought my Cressi Ellipse Titanium regs over a year ago, I was searching for technical information rather than the traditional BS hype which is what is contained in 99.98% of all marketing materials. My LDS sells AquaLung and can obviously special order Apeks regs, but nowhere did I get to see what the actual labs were, because these companies don't make this information readily available to the end users. When I contacted said companies and asked why, I was very matter of factly told that most people could care less and are all about buying the latest "style" or "fad". That's all well and good, but that aint me!

Cressi's website had this info clearly available for anyone desiring to read it, and I did, then after a lot of continued searching I found a few more companies that also made this info available, though I bought Cressi because their results were the better of the bunch. A lot of companies never even made the "final-4" because theye didn't market those results, even though they are actually a better product that what I chose to purchase.

The funny thing is at first SeaJay was initially very skeptical of HOG because it's so new and is essentially a "no name" company, but the more he too looked into them, the more impressed he has been with everything that he's seen an heard (aside from the turret 1st stage that is) about the products and more importantly company philosphy. If he had told me "No, don't buy them!", then neither of us would even be taking part in this thread because I draw from his advice and years of technical expertise to assist me where I have or previously had little to no knowledge.

You'll find a link to the ANSTI results readily available on the Edge-HOG website at the bottom of each regulator description, which is where I linked that image directly from!

-Tim
 
Personally, I just look at the numbers. A good number to look at is WOB. Another might be maximum air delivery but that's kind of iffy because many regulators can deliver more air than the tank valve.

Negative. See my previous post. WOB numbers have little to do with regulator design, and much more to do with the technician that last worked on the regulators.

As a side note, most experienced divers detune their regulators. Regs that have high "maximum air delivery" numbers can drain your gas in a heartbeat if there's any problem like a freeflow or leak.

Agreed, there is a threshold... You want the regulator to be able to deliver all the gas your body needs, at any depth. But anything more is not only wasted engineering, but likely wasteful with your breathing gas... Which is kinda important! :)

How odd that 3 of the 5 reviewers didn't include SP in their top 5 choices and the other two rated it only 4th and 5th. Odd because the Work Of Breathing was FAR lower on the SP regulator than on any of the others. Given that all 5 reviewers chose the Apeks as their top rated, this is either a terrific regulator or this review is really an advertisement. It's WOB is more than 25% higher than the SP Mlk17. Yet there is nothing in the reviews to suggest why the SP ranked so low.

(snip)

The problem with reviews is you have to be able to figure out what's going on with the reviewers. If the review is for a magazine, paid advertisers will always get at least a mild recommendation even if the equipment is junk. It pays to be cynical.

Ah, the public is finally catching on... :)

You'd be seriously surprised - or perhaps not - to find out what sort of politics and finances go on behind the scenes with many "unbiased reviews." :) A hint to this trend in the industry is that many "unbiased reviewers" often don't consistently grade a piece of gear... That is, what's their favorite (with fantastic numbers) this year is totally different next year - even though the equipment hasn't changed.

Another interesting point is to watch "unbiased testers" grade two pieces of equipment - say, an Apeks ATX50 second stage and and Apeks ATX200 second stage - with completely different numbers... Even though the only difference between the two is the model number logo on the button. Internally, they're identical. In fact, if you serviced the two regs and accidentally placed the wrong cover on a regulator body, you'd never know it... They're literally the same piece.

Why, then, would they create completely different WOB numbers? Two reasons... Either one's simply tuned differently than the other, or the testers aren't really "unbiased." That's all there is to it.

What really gets me is that in every dive magazine, their "Tester's Choice" or "Editor's Pick" is always a regulator that's been in the market for like one month. It's always a "latest and greatest" game, even when the "latest and greatest" sucks. Pick up a two-year-old magazine and see what was "latest and greatest" at that time. Much of the, "Wow - this revolutionizes everything" doesn't even get made the following year... Or tests horribly the year after it's debut.

...So how do you find out what's good and what's not? Simple... Ask someone who does a lot of diving. He'll tell you... And probably in some pretty plain language. Not only will you glean what's good, bad, and ugly, but you'll find out what's really important when it comes to gear... Like that it's not important to look for "light" gear and that titanium regulators limit you in terms of what gasses you can breathe, and that even though the industry creates an entirely new fin and BC every year (which is always revolutionary), what's important in gear isn't what's new or light or "revolutionary" - it's what works when you want it to work. Experienced divers value solidity and predictability in their life support systems - not "latest and greatest."

People point out on a regular basis that local dive shops seem to be facing a very rough economy right now. I'll tell you that I know A LOT of dive shops that are thriving. See, in 2010, the scuba industry is experiencing a situation that they called a "paradigm shift" in business school. The industry is changing. The scuba consumer is getting smarter - probably because of forums like this. Divers talk now, and they communicate ideas like never before in history.

As such, purchasers - and therefore dollars - are being directed toward what is really great equipment... Not the junk that they're marketing as "latest and greatest" and "revolutionary." A dive shop owner can be on one side of the fence or the other... He can be on the side that is experiencing the people shifting away from, or he can be on the side that is experiencing the people shifting toward. One or the other - that's it.

I'm sure that overall, the industry is down... But many LDSs aren't experiencing a slowdown in the industry... They're experiencing a 100% or near 100% drop in business. That's because the people spending the money have gone somewhere else. If that's the case, then the LDS that's affected that way can either change or die.

Sadly, many LDS owners weren't there in my business classes... So they're unprepared and left scratching their heads. And down goes another LDS.

Nobody wants to see any business fail... But if an owner is unwilling to change with the market, then that LDS needs to fail so that a new one can be born that is willing to deliver to the consumer what they want... REAL dive gear that is life-support dependable, parts kits and service for everything they sell, and reliable hours for the storefront to be open... Served with a smile and a fair price. Multilevel distribution schemes, manufacturer-mandated pricing, "factory authorized" shops, plastic "beach toy" equipment and money-motivated "unbiased reviewers" are all part of the problem - and thankfully, things that the average scuba consumer is moving away from.

Each business in the scuba industry has a choice - stay and die or change and thrive. Their choice.

Why wasn't ScubaPro featured in many of the tests? I dunno, man... You tell me. :) I CAN tell you, though, that ScubaPro's business is down pretty dramatically, with one of the clear problems that I can see being that they refuse to allow any distributor to sell their products online or by phone or mail order. Since the scuba consumer is making a huge move toward buying online (most divers I know purchase more than 50% of their gear online, by phone, or by mail order), then automatically ScubaPro equipment will not be purchased. Plainly, ScubaPro is failing to follow the paradigm shift. ScubaPro also has an issue with manufacturer-mandated pricing. In other words, they do not allow a retailer to sell their product below a certain price. This is a problem, because the retailer needs to be able to sell the product at whatever the market demands... Basic Supply and Demand (Econ 101). The CONSUMER controls the market and pricing, not the manufacturer. If a retailer needs to discount an item or service, he should be able to do that. With ScubaPro's rules, the retailer can lose his supplier if he does that.

...Which is rediculous, and creates a huge problem for the retailer. If product doesn't move, he can't have a "sale" and get some product out the door at a reduced profit. It's not allowed.

As a consumer, then, where would you rather spend your dollars? Me - I go online and purchase the regs I know will work (or read here that work) at the best price I can find... Period. Thus, yet another purchase has slipped through ScubaPro's sticky fingers... All because they've invented "rules" that are antiquated and shooting themselves in the foot. They're not following the paradigm shift. They're on the "people moving away" side of the fence.

...So when I hear them say, "Man, the economy's pretty bad," I just roll my eyes and laugh. Sure, it may be down a little, but I know a lot of people thriving, and it's not you. :)

I sincerely hope that HOG regs take off - they're a fantastic product and show a tremendous amount of promise. The company needs to embrace the empowered consumer and offer a great price on a great product, factory direct. If they keep a quality product consistent and available, they'll be very profitable.

What we as consumers today need is a great product, consistent service, available parts, and a reduced cost for a streamlined distribution system that's Internet-based, not Internet-phobic. What we don't need is a regulator with an LCD screen in it that complains that it's overdue for service. What we don't need is yet another "revolutionary design" that makes it even easier to breathe. Man, if it was true that every regulator was easier to breathe than the last one you reviewed, then we'd have regulators that were breathing for you by now. We're sick of hearing it.

...And the next time an LDS owner tells you that there's no business while he demands $700 for a piece of equipment that you know you can find for $400 online, know that the problem isn't "the economy." The problem is that the LDS owner is continuing to do business in a way that the consumer will no longer tolerate.

Man, if I had a dollar for every dive shop owner that told me, "Wow, you can get it for less than I can," when I showed him that it was available at any one of a dozen online retailers for half the price that he was asking in the shop... I'd be a very wealthy man. "No, they'll sell it to YOU at that price, too," I always tell him. That is, no, I CAN'T get it for less than you can - you can buy it at that price, too. In fact, you can probably buy it for less, 'cause they'd be willing to cut you a deal.

...Which is the way it's ALWAYS been. The retailer's purpose was to connect a supply chain to the consumer, for a fee. If the consumer can find a better supply chain than the retailer can (usually after one Google search), then the retailer needs to find a better supply chain. That's all there is to it. He needs to do his job. If he's not, then he's not - that's all there is to it. And the American Capitalism system will spit him out and he will go out of business... That's all there is to it.

It makes me sick to see these shocked people stand there and wonder where all the business went. Look, if you don't know, then you're REALLY missing the point of being in business - it's your job to know where the business is!

Okay, off my soapbox now. :) I would encourage people to patronize small, upbeat and business-aware companies like Edge/HOG... But I don't think it's necessary. People will be astounded in the next couple of years when they look around and realize that a company like Edge/HOG has taken over the marketplace - and thrived, in "the middle of a recession." I'm so sick of hearing that, I could scream. "The economy" isn't the problem. The problem - if you see one - is that you're on the wrong side of the fence. For the business owners that are seeing people running TO them, there IS no problem. :)
 
Not online I don't... Grab your phone! :wink:


That's actually incorrect, because only certain dealers ship your CHOICE of hoses with the regs, since the regs are actually sold without any hoses, and only as individual components rather than always as a 1st and 2nd stage set. Anyone that's replaceing regs already has what is more than likely a perfectly good set of hoses that they have removed from their older reg set, or like me you're buying a full set of Miflex to use. Either way you're right though in that you're not wasting money for something that will simply get tossed aside in a spare parts box that is full of junk that you'll never actually use.

-Tim

Ah, I gotcha... I was wondering how they did that. :) Even better. :)
 
...And the next time an LDS owner tells you that there's no business while he demands $700 for a piece of equipment that you know you can find for $400 online, know that the problem isn't "the economy." The problem is that the LDS owner is continuing to do business in a way that the consumer will no longer tolerate.

I would encourage people to patronize small, upbeat and business-aware companies like Edge/HOG... But I don't think it's necessary. People will be astounded in the next couple of years when they look around and realize that a company like Edge/HOG has taken over the marketplace - and thrived, in "the middle of a recession." I'm so sick of hearing that, I could scream. "The economy" isn't the problem. The problem - if you see one - is that you're on the wrong side of the fence. For the business owners that are seeing people running TO them, there IS no problem. :)
I have turned my LDS onto Edge-HOG and the owner is very intrigued to the point that he has called and spoken to Chris and received "the numbers"...

Being a loyal and dedicated AquaLung dealer is all well and good, however the market downturn is killing their sales of said "$700 equipment". My sole point in making them aware of Edge-HOG as a super viable option is that they can actually make a better profit margin and still be able to deliver an equal or better product at FAR LESS than what they have been through their Naziesque distribution channels. Hell, they've shown me their catalogs and invoices, so do know how badly their being hosed. By having another option available to them and their clientele like myself, it will keep us from sending our hard earned dollars out of town and keep the local boyz in business for another year at least. :)

-Tim
 
Negative. See my previous post. WOB numbers have little to do with regulator design, and much more to do with the technician that last worked on the regulators.

As a side note, most experienced divers detune their regulators. Regs that have high "maximum air delivery" numbers can drain your gas in a heartbeat if there's any problem like a freeflow or leak.

Agreed, there is a threshold... You want the regulator to be able to deliver all the gas your body needs, at any depth. But anything more is not only wasted engineering, but likely wasteful with your breathing gas... Which is kinda important! :)

I think the better point is that the regulator is capable of achieving very low WOB numbers. The diver can choose to detune the regulator somewhat. I certainly don't want the thing free-flowing in a current.

We can assume that the reviewers didn't measure the WOB on the regulators they actually tested. More than likely, they just published the factory numbers and these numbers are the best the regulator will ever measure.

...So how do you find out what's good and what's not? Simple... Ask someone who does a lot of diving. He'll tell you... And probably in some pretty plain language. Not only will you glean what's good, bad, and ugly, but you'll find out what's really important when it comes to gear...

I'm a little skeptical of this approach as well. It is just human nature to recommend the thing you just bought and disparage the thing it replaced. A prospective purchaser can post to a forum like this and get a broad spectrum of recommendations but the problem is that it isn't as broad as first thought. Kind of like the BP/W crowd. Small in number but vocal! Disclaimer: I'm one of them...

In the end, a customer can read, discuss and consider all kinds of opinions but they have to make their own decision. As long as they buy an appropriate regulator for the environment and it is from one of the top suppliers, things will work out fine. It might not be the 'best' regulator in any particular regard but it will most likely perform beyond their ability to discern.

Richard
 
I have turned my LDS onto Edge-HOG and the owner is very intrigued to the point that he has called and spoken to Chris and received "the numbers"...

Being a loyal and dedicated AquaLung dealer is all well and good, however the market downturn is killing their sales of said "$700 equipment". My sole point in making them aware of Edge-HOG as a super viable option is that they can actually make a better profit margin and still be able to deliver an equal or better product at FAR LESS than what they have been through their Naziesque distribution channels. Hell, they've shown me their catalogs and invoices, so do know how badly their being hosed. By having another option available to them and their clientele like myself, it will keep us from sending our hard earned dollars out of town and keep the local boyz in business for another year at least. :)

-Tim

Thank God... There ARE LDSs that are figuring it out and moving to the "other side of the fence." :) I know you'd probably like to see them stay in business... :)
 
In the end, a customer can read, discuss and consider all kinds of opinions but they have to make their own decision. As long as they buy an appropriate regulator for the environment and it is from one of the top suppliers, things will work out fine. It might not be the 'best' regulator in any particular regard but it will most likely perform beyond their ability to discern.

Richard

This paragraph could well be voted as both the BEST and the WORST statement in this entire thread. Best overall, but the statement of "top suppliers" completely negates any of the small start-ups which is precisely what Edge-HOG is, though it's been well established over the past several pages they are most certainly here to be a force to be reckoned with, because they want to provide what divers want and need, not something that passes beach-side "market research / opinion poll" at some tropical resort that is fueled by vacation divers in neon! :idk:

I knew what you were saying though! :D

-Tim
 
Thank God... There ARE LDSs that are figuring it out and moving to the "other side of the fence." :) I know you'd probably like to see them stay in business... :)
As far as I know they haven't pulled the trigger yet, but i think they will.

I certainly hope and pray that they stay alive and well, because I do not want to have to drop the coin to buy my own compressor, and we both know that I absolutely need a local supplier of air.
 

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