computer dependent divers...

[ndl]

Your other gear is all passive technology. Your computer is not. If you don't understand the difference, or why this makes an equivalent dependence unwise, find an engineer to sit down and explain it to you.



THAT is a scary statement. If you have that little confidence in your own ability to perform basic diving tasks, aren't you worried about diving?
One, there is really not any real math in using the tables. If you can have a credit card without getting into bankruptcy, then you can use the tables; it's almost exactly the same process. There are 12 year olds learning to use the tables every day. If you have trouble with it, you shouldn't just accept that, you should find a way to overcome it.



What if your buddy has the same type of computer - for that matter, many of the computers available today share the same internal hardware. Oh, they couldn't all fail at once, and in a way no one noticed, could they? Are you old enough for the words "Pentium Bug" to resonate with you? How many thousands were in the hands of consumers before that one was noticed? How many more before Intel actually admitted that it was true? Anyone here ever dealt with Intel's QA processes? They're the benchmark. Check out the "copy exact" policy to see what fanatics they are, and yet, this one slipped by them.

Your computer could fail in ways you would NEVER detect, unless you understood the principles it operates on well enough not to say "i don't know what would be more reliable in the long run - my comp or my table skills."

Computers are not inherently bad in diving, but your statement is a screaming advertisement for the reasons people object to computers.

I couldn't help noticing that you probably don't do to meny multi level dives. the tables you refer too can't help with that.

They also come in handy for altitude diving and po2 loading. I dive a computer all the time and I'm still around . the dive computer is one of the best things that has improved dive safety sence diving began. If a dive computer should fail on a dive it's really no big deal , you just do a slow ascent and a couple of extra minutes of safety stop. All this talk about how bad computers are is just that " talk" it's not real world diving

 

[ndl]

Isn't it obvious?
You should be able to mentally track your depth based on an awareness of your vertical motion. Anything else is a crutch.

Or you can shoot a lift bag and pay attention to the 50,40,30 20, foot marks on the line like real divers do. it's just a thought. but being prepared is what advanced divers do

 

[FreeFloat]

I suppose you memorize the tables too, eh?

Only parts of them, and it isn't usually intentional. Numbers have a way of sticking in my head.

I like the rule of 120 better.

 

[FreeFloat]

Knowing those values without looking is pointless. If you can't check your instruments at will, why have them?

There are two ways to know your depth and dive time.

1. Look at your instruments often.

2. Look at your instruments seldom, and in between, visually track depth changes, while counting off "one-mississippi, two-mississippi."

Or, you could be a REAL MAN, and leave the instruments behind, and just count off seconds and minutes in your head the whole dive. Yeah, that wristwatch is just a crutch for sissies.

The only reason I brought up the AOW "narc-test" questions was to point out how diver awareness can suck. I try to stay on top of my depth, time and pressure constantly and a lot of times I can predict exactly where I am with each of those, before I look. That way none of my gauges should ever surprise me.

As for counting off seconds in my head, I actually had to do that on a safety stop once after my watch fell off and was swept away (this was before I owned a bottom time) Don't knock it til you've done it.

 

[Allison Finch]

My whole point is that they never look at the computer for the relevant data (max depth and time). They should know their max depth and time before they are within 15 feet of the surface or they me be a candidate for DCS.

So, I guess you NEVER take your eyes off your guage. Dives are rarely on absolutely flat topography (unless you're in a pool bottom). A person is always going to change depth here and there. I have a good idea of my depth but couldn't tell you to the inch at all times. Yes, I use computers. Always two, just in case.......

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

Just wanted to add my perspective for collective consideration.

WRT "Blue screen of death," "millennium bug," "don't trust computers" type of comments, dive computers are very well designed and tested. PCs are not. Not a valid comparison.

The chance of getting faulty information from a dive computer is incredibly remote. As stated on a similar thread (sorry, I don't feel like looking it up to give proper credit) the most likely failure of a computer would be a complete shutdown, while the most likely failure of an analog gauge would be a stuck gauge giving erroneous data. So, a computer failure is less likely, and more survivable, than an analog gauge failure.

AOW students who can run the tables in two minutes on the surface take about ten minutes to do the same calculations at 30', thanks to nitrogen's effects. It makes us think slower at all depths, and gives us that nice euphoric feeling we all love. Computers are imune to the subtle influence of nitrogen, not to mention the not-so-subtle narcosis.

This is why I trust my computer to make better decisions at depth than I trust my brain.

Personally, I don't have a redundant computer, and I don't carry the tables with me. Instead, I write on my slate the max. depth and time for the planned dive, along with the next two depth/time combinations in case I overshoot. This way if the computer fails during the dive I can 'fall back on the tables' w/o having to try to work it out at depth. Of course, this requires remembering to start a stopwatch at the beginning of the dive.

I do not think using a computer means that I don't have to plan my dives or regularly check my instruments.

 

[kmac]

Just wanted to add my perspective for collective consideration.

WRT "Blue screen of death," "millennium bug," "don't trust computers" type of comments, dive computers are very well designed and tested. PCs are not. Not a valid comparison.

The following is first hand observation, nothing to argue with. It happened, it's done. Not calling computers good or bad, yin or yang, Vader or Obi Wan...

Firsthand I have seen more than a few failures which is why I never trusted my comp. I always carry analog gauges so my buddies always double check with me to cross examine their comps, not a bad practice, just extra safety margin. And its paid off more than you'd think.

Now these failures aren't something that probably would have happened under normal use, more than a couple of the guys in the club are just plain hard on gear and like to get their moneys worth. (Another fine trait of Uncle Sams Misguided Children :unclesam: )

Some of the failures;

One was a case failure, at 111' the screen turned that pretty rainbow color and had partial numbers and graphics bouncing around. The case had "imploded" along what was determined to be a manufacturing flaw. not just flooded or a seal leak... No big deal... free replacement and everybody came home.

Another was a potentially bad ending, my bud was hanging onto the anchor at the bottom of a 90' line... His comp read his depth at 37', he dropped about 15' to me and now his comp said he was at 34'... It also said that in 40 minutes at 105' (+/-) he had used less than #200 air. The comp was KIA and remains were never located.

The rest were mostly battery problems and low volt shutdowns, did see one that while submerged would go through its boot sequence every 2 to 2 1/2 minutes. The battery failures are no fault of the computer but just a reminder to carry a backup of everything... If you need one, take 2, you won't regret it...

But like I said I am open to first hand information from divers that have used their computers and lived to tell about it. I am completely open to buying a comp that is battle proven and shown its worth when it counts, not just because its got a cool design, bright colors, and more bells and whistle than the other.

IMHO Saying that anything doesn't have problems is like saying "trust me". The space shuttle was well designed and tested too.

 

[Xanthro]

Your computer could fail in ways you would NEVER detect, unless you understood the principles it operates on well enough not to say "i don't know what would be more reliable in the long run - my comp or my table skills."

The same could be said for your spg or any other item.

Sorry, but comparing Blue Screen of Death or Pentium Bug to a dive computer really dosen't apply.

Dive computer are not computers at all, they are simple calculating devices.

Did you EVER encounter the Pentium calculation error. I highly highly doubt it. I had computers with the bug, not a thing wrong with them, in fact, it was a pain to even replicate the bug once you knew how.

Blue screen of death isn't caused by the computer, it's caused by conflicts. These conflicts occur because anyone can write software for a PC and people install it, anyone can make hardware for a PC.

Here's a test, install Windows XP, install nothing else and keep the computer on and see how long it takes before you get a BSOD.

You're not installing other hardware devices or software on your dive computer.

Two things can really affect a dive comp. 1) Software programming errors, such as Uwatec programming the SI to use the tables as if you were still breathing Nitrox. 2) Hardware failure.

The latter can happen in any device. The former is very rare, and frankly, less likely than a person making a critical mistake using the wheel. Staight tables are easier, but provide less bottom time.

Xanthro

 

[Diver0001]

Knowing those values without looking is pointless. If you can't check your instruments at will, why have them?

.

I think you might have missed the point.

Tests like this are generally intended to drive home the point that you should have checked your instruments often enough that you would know within a couple of min and a few bar at any point during the dive.

During a narc test I assume he would be making the point that narcosis can impair your ability to remember the numbers and/or make you forget to look at all....

R..

 

[Mike Veitch]

This is the most ridiculous thread i have ever read. A computer is a tool. Use it just like the one you are typing on. If you don't want to then don't, that's fine, keep yourself away from modern technology. Perhaps you can fax your replys in from an old typewriter. Smart!

If you don't want to use the technology at hand then don't. Its all up to you, just don't ***** and moan about people who do.

3000+ dives all with a computer! Using one is an intelligent safety device.


As i said...absolutely the most pointless argument/thread i have ever read.