DIR fin technique questions

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Hey SBer's,

My last two dives I spent working on DIR style kicking

I presume you are talking about anti silting finning techniques which are not DIR. I don't believe DIR has any kind of kicking style particular to it.

1) Why do people use the frog kick even when traversing open water well above the bottom? As a former competitive swimmer, frog kick is the most inefficient kick of all three because of the repeated fast acceleration and fast deceleration. Even the DIR style flutter kick with 90* bent knees is much more efficient.

I use frog kick predominately when diving. I like to be close to the bottom so it stirs up the ground less.

I also see no need to go fast and the frog kick conserves more energy than flutter kicking in my experience. My legs don't get as tired.

I find frog kicking easier on my dodgy knee too (from years of netball...)

I can see frog kick's utility when maneuvering in smaller areas but not for longer distance travel or even cruising at depth.

It depends if you want to conserve energy or go fast as to what is the most appropriate kick over long distance travel. Though these days I can frog kick pretty fast if I need to...

2) Again, as a competitive swimmer, frog kick is really hard on the knees. Those of us who used to race the stroke can attest that long workouts of breaststroke did not leave us with happy knees. While I don't have bad knees yet, I'm expecting some in a couple of years due to rowing injuries. Does DIR actually address this or is it just a HTFU issue for them?

If you do have bad knees, how do deal with frog kick? Or do you just not do it?

Actually I have found frog kicking much easier on my knee... I guess it depends on your technique and the problem with your knee as to if it will hurt or not.

In the end, I just don't see the heavy emphasis on DIR frog kick being correct or necessary. Yes, it is a kick that has uses and should be used should the situation call for it. But to use it as a primary mode of movement? It seems impractical.

I find that in so many situations flutter kick stirs up the bottom and I find it annoying to dive with people who do this. Again it is dependent on what type of diving you do but if you want to be close to the bottom (which I do, in nearly all of my dives other than wall dives pretty much), frog kick is more appropriate unless there is nothing below that will stir up or be hurt by you flutter kicking.
 
Holy crap, I didn't either.

Oh wait, where again was it claimed that "DIR" (a philosophy) developed the frog kick in this thread? I don't remember seeing that now that I think about it. Use != invent.

I guess I "invented" that after reading the TITLE OF THE THREAD. :mooner:
 
I guess I "invented" that after reading the TITLE OF THE THREAD. :mooner:

Calling that interpretation "reading" would be a stretch.

DIR fin techniques = those fin techniques used by those diving DIR

*NOT* those fin techniques invented by those diving DIR.

Why your first thought went to invention and not use is beyond me.
 
There is a "special forum" for questions like that. Maybe this thread should be moved there.
 
Hey SBer's,

My last two dives I spent working on DIR style kicking and found that, yes, they do reduce silt kick up significantly. I was able to reduce my silt to zero even when cruising inches from the ground.

I am curious on a few things though:

1) Why do people use the frog kick even when traversing open water well above the bottom? As a former competitive swimmer, frog kick is the most inefficient kick of all three because of the repeated fast acceleration and fast deceleration. Even the DIR style flutter kick with 90* bent knees is much more efficient.

Not just in open water but through kelp forests too. I watched as both of my experienced buddies this weekend frog kick through kelp forests and couldn't help but notice that if for instance kelp snagged on their tanks, the fast acceleration from frog kick would pull them upwards, or otherwise worsen things by pulling tighter. Whereas when I switched to DIR flutter, if something snagged, it would be gradual and I could quickly untangle without as much thrashing around as frog produces.

I can see frog kick's utility when maneuvering in smaller areas but not for longer distance travel or even cruising at depth.

2) Again, as a competitive swimmer, frog kick is really hard on the knees. Those of us who used to race the stroke can attest that long workouts of breaststroke did not leave us with happy knees. While I don't have bad knees yet, I'm expecting some in a couple of years due to rowing injuries. Does DIR actually address this or is it just a HTFU issue for them?

If you do have bad knees, how do deal with frog kick? Or do you just not do it?




In the end, I just don't see the heavy emphasis on DIR frog kick being correct or necessary. Yes, it is a kick that has uses and should be used should the situation call for it. But to use it as a primary mode of movement? It seems impractical.

I must respectfully disagree with you. I'm not a DIR diver (by the way, the finning techniques you describe were borne from the cave, as was the DIR approach to diving), but as a rookie cave diver, I favor the frog-kick above all as a propulsion technique, whether I'm in open water or not. The main reason: I use Jetfins, and flutter-kicking in a pair of those for extended periods is tough on my legs. I had ACL surgery five years ago, and arthritis is starting to take hold: even so, I find a frog-kick much easier to perform than any other kick. As for reduced repeated fast acceleration and fast deceleration, I've never considered it to be a problem: you'd be surprised how far one can glide with a frog-kick. I have to make a concerted effort to move through the water very slowly. The fact that I don't ruin the viz by kicking up masisve silt clouds is moreover a huge advantage.

In kelp forests, lava tubes or environments where there may not be a lot of room to maneuver, a modified frog-kick or a modified flutter-kick will work very well. Reduces the risk of entanglement, too, since your legs are bent at the knee, giving the diver a 'shorter' profile. But as I said, even in open water, I will always default to a frog. It's a comfortable, all-purpose and neat little kick.
 
Hey SBer's,

My last two dives I spent working on DIR style kicking and found that, yes, they do reduce silt kick up significantly. I was able to reduce my silt to zero even when cruising inches from the ground.

I am curious on a few things though:

1) Why do people use the frog kick even when traversing open water well above the bottom? As a former competitive swimmer, frog kick is the most inefficient kick of all three because of the repeated fast acceleration and fast deceleration. Even the DIR style flutter kick with 90* bent knees is much more efficient.

Not just in open water but through kelp forests too. I watched as both of my experienced buddies this weekend frog kick through kelp forests and couldn't help but notice that if for instance kelp snagged on their tanks, the fast acceleration from frog kick would pull them upwards, or otherwise worsen things by pulling tighter. Whereas when I switched to DIR flutter, if something snagged, it would be gradual and I could quickly untangle without as much thrashing around as frog produces.

I can see frog kick's utility when maneuvering in smaller areas but not for longer distance travel or even cruising at depth.

2) Again, as a competitive swimmer, frog kick is really hard on the knees. Those of us who used to race the stroke can attest that long workouts of breaststroke did not leave us with happy knees. While I don't have bad knees yet, I'm expecting some in a couple of years due to rowing injuries. Does DIR actually address this or is it just a HTFU issue for them?

If you do have bad knees, how do deal with frog kick? Or do you just not do it?

In the end, I just don't see the heavy emphasis on DIR frog kick being correct or necessary. Yes, it is a kick that has uses and should be used should the situation call for it. But to use it as a primary mode of movement? It seems impractical.

I have similar issues to you; I often see videos of DIR-trained local divers using frog kicks to the exclusion of all others, when silting isn't an issue. The use of regular type kicks wasn't really discussed in Fundies class (it apparently being assumed that you already know them), and the whole emphasis of Fundies was to learn the bent-knee kicks. I had a considerable discussion with my Fundies instructor about the use of them, and whether in fact bent knee kicks (frog and flutter) as taught in DIR classes are a more _efficient_ propulsion method than the ones we were taught as swimmers. I suggested that you were raising your feet/legs out of the lower drag 'V' formed by your head/body when doing kicks bent leg, thus increasing drag. Of course, if you're routinely using doubles with/without a stage, your streamlining sucks regardless. My DIR-style kicks are still quite poor so I'm withholding final judgement, but my current attitude is that until I see/hear of free divers or Navy Seals using 90 deg. bent knee kicks because they're more efficient, I'll continue to use my regular swimming flutter kicks for transits. Note that this requires you to have better aerobic condition and leg strength than the typical diver, but I imagine both of us do.

Many of the technical dives done locally (Monterey/Carmel) are done from boats where the 'transit' involves dropping down the anchor/drop line, so being efficient while transiting isn't much of an issue. Many DIR divers use scooters when they have to transit any distance, something which I'm not interested in. Where I think the DIR-type kicks are very useful is in maneuvering in tight areas, especially if you're a photographer who needs to hold position sans hands. Most of these kicks require use of a stiff paddle fin to do well (or in some cases, at all). They are very useful kicks, but the average diver doesn't _need_ to know how to do them to dive successfully. While the class mentions that the DIR-style kicks are tools to use when called for, I suspect that many divers who take Fundies don't have good enough swimming skills to evaluate when the use of these kicks is/is not more efficient. From my observation many DIR divers (and divers in general) are relatively poor swimmers, who don't know or aren't very good at the standard swimming strokes; just look at the number of divers who bicycle kick while trying to do a standard flutter.

For me, I still prefer to use my split fins/flutter kick for a dive that involves a long transit (most shore dives I do locally), as opposed to a boat dive where transit is irrelevant but maneuverability more important, where my jet fins come into their own as I amble around. This sort of situational fin choice isn't DIR, but works best for me. Not silting up the bottom in open water locally while doing a standard flutter kick is just a matter of staying far enough off it; when I need/want to drop down close I use a more appropriate, slower kick.

Many divers, photographers especially, prefer to cruise slowly over a smaller area, looking at every macro aspect - most of the time that isn't for me, as part of the enjoyment I derive from diving is due to the sheer pleasure of exercising while swimming. While having a good SAC rate is important, I'm not trying to extend my gas to the exclusion of everything else. And although swimming slowly/using DIR frog/flutter kicks gives you a low SAC rate because you're not using the big leg muscles as much, so does any kick involving small leg movements.

Having the lowest possible SAC rate is important when you're piddling around in a small area, but having a higher SAC rate while moving considerably faster may well be more efficient while transiting. For instance, swimming out to the Barge at the Breakwater on two consecutive dives, on the first (while taking our time owing to one of my buddies hauling a large video camera) I used 700 PSI in the 14 minute transit, for an average DAC rate of 50 PSI/min.

On the next dive done solo (exactly the same route, same tank size), I swam out to the Barge much faster, taking only 7 minutes and using 500 PSI, for a DAC rate of just over 71 PSI/min. So even though my SAC/DAC was worse on this second dive my efficiency was better, as I had 200 more PSI available at the barge to spend piddling around there (actually 400 PSI, assuming the same advantage going back, and not exceeding min gas limits). It's the difference between best endurance and best range, which (perhaps) many newer DIR divers don't understand. After all, your car uses the least amount of fuel idling while sitting still, but your MPG is zero.


On your other point about knees and the like, I don't have that problem but I do have a bad hip and old groin muscle tear, and doing a standard frog kick for more than 5 minutes or so now is painful. I was pleasantly surprised during Fundies class to find that doing DIR-style frog and modified frog kicks didn't cause me any pain. Whether that would hold true for your knees I couldn't say, but there does seem to be a considerable difference in which parts of your body are being stressed.

Bottom, line, do take a Fundies class when you're ready, but maintain your skepticism about DIR frog/flutter kicks being the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything until you've determined for yourself if they're the most _efficient_ kicks, as well as having the lowest SAC. To me, that's what being a 'thinking diver' is all about.

Guy
 
When properly practiced and executed why wouldn't a standard fin kick which uses larger muscle groups work better in open ocean off the bottom. Not so much from a lower SAC rate (which probably has to do with going slower in the first place) but from a physics point of view. To me the standard flutter appears more efficient.

Which physics?

As far as efficiency (defined as something in / something out), there are a number of things one can consider.

1) Energy out/ Energy in

That is exactly 100% for any kick type (by conservation of energy).

It's more appropriate to look at Energy in / Useful energy out. But how do we quantify that?

2) Distance out / Energy In

How far do I get per unit of exertion? But again, energy is hard to quantify without measurement. Fortunately, we (most of use) carry a pressure gauge.

3) Distance out / Gas in

That's a quantifiable, measurable value that directly relates to diving.

Personally, I get more distance per unit gas consumed with a frog kick than with a flutter, scissor or dolphin kick.

How about you?
 
... divers in general) are relatively poor swimmers, who don't know or aren't very good at the standard swimming strokes; just look at the number of divers who bicycle kick while trying to do a standard flutter.

Guy - (assuming we're talking about forward crawl) go watch some professional swimmers and see how many of them flutter kick. I'll bet you it's roughly zero. The kick most often associated with forward crawl ('freestyle') is a scissor kick. Unlike a lutter kick, it comes from the hips.
 
Maybe it's what you're used to. I always thought the frog was slow and inefficient until I got really good at it.

Remember your drag in water increases exponentially with speed, so there's really no benefit to going faster with a flutter than what you can achieve with the frog.

However, in heavy current and when I really have to turn up the steam I always go back to the flutter for its effeciency.
 
I think the frog kick, to some extent, is habit forming. Because it incorporates a rest phase, it isn't very fatiguing -- I can and have frog kicked for a couple of hours in caves in MX without getting tired. It also gives you a buoyancy check with each kick, because of the glide. In still water, it's really a lovely kick, and we all had to practice it to learn it, so we acquired the habit.

You are quite right that there are circumstances where it's not ideal, and the problem with people getting stuck on frog kicking has become severe enough that GUE has issued a technical bulletin to make sure their instructors work with students enough on the modified flutter. Flutter IS better when swimming into current or flow, because there is a constant stream of propulsion directed forward, and you don't have the glide phase to lose velocity and momentum.

Bent leg kicks are just plain better when you are swimming above a fine silt floor, unless you are way up in the water column. I have seen flutter kickers six or eight feet up in the water column and still leaving a silt trail, here in the Sound. If you are swimming above sand, no big deal -- if you are even a few feet off the bottom, you will raise little dust and it will settle quickly behind you. Over fine silt, things are different.

I do disagree with Guy. If I am doing a long transit, and am not in current, I will frog kick, because I won't get tired. If I am doing a VERY long transit over largely uninteresting terrain . . . well, that is one of the few situations where I get out the scooter. Diving, for marveling at things, is best done slowly.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

Back
Top Bottom