Dispelling scubaboard myths (Part 1: It is the instructor not the agency)

[Diver0001]

I just want to be clear that nowhere did I say that *I* think the average new diver of today is less competent than the average new diver of yore.

Well that's good because there isn't really any way you could objectively assess that.

What I said was that "some might argue" that today's new divers are less competent.

Some also argue that humans never went to the moon or that the earth is flat... that climate change isn't happening or that if you are gay then you are sick. People *believe* a lot of things that have no bearing in fact and are backed up by emotional convictions without facts and cannot be defended by logic. You've had at me, IIRC, in several threads about technical diving.... one in particular I recall about how computers work. I'm pretty sure that you have ZERO technical dives to your credit to my 489 (a few more than I quoted at that time)... but you brought it as if YOU were the expert on technical diving and I had no idea what I was talking about.

I eventually gave up debating it with you but much for the same reason that I don't debate politics with knuckle dragging red-necks. Not because I am wrong, but because giving you a podium to talk **** was a disservice to this community.

I've been on this board since 2002 IIRC and before that on various other online platforms, as primitive as they might have been, since about 1995. In that time I have also gone through the phases of thinking (early on) that I knew nothing to (later) thinking I knew everything and more recently thinking I know nothing again.

My experience over, let's call it 20 years (I've been diving for 33), of online participation is that people with little experience but big opinions are not really the ones you want to listen to. You want to listen to people with big experience who seldom express themselves in black-and-white terms.

I'm as guilty of being the guy you don't want to listen to as anyone.... however, you've been diving for 3 years. You LITERALLY have no idea how things were done in the past but you speculate, draw conclusions based on those speculations and then condemn modern practices based on some fantasy about how things must have been back in the good-old-days. You do the same thing in discussions about technical diving even though you are not a technical diver...

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO STOP and start listening instead of talking?

R..

 

[shurite7]

It is appears the time to end this thread has come since the topic of the OP has been lost. Perhaps it is best move on to myth number two, whatever that is.

 

[Diver0001]

Well.... .

Actually....

I think one of the "myths" that needs dispelling is that "he/she" who screams the loudest has the most to say. This is an Internet phenomenon.

I would like to address that. The OP didn't like that in an unrelated thread several experienced instructors REALLY insisted that the instructor matters with respect to the quality of training. That's why this thread was started. The OP (despite having limited to no experience teaching) believed that the instructor didn't matter. They didn't get the traction they wanted in the original thread so they started a new thread to object to that opinion, thinking that *this time* someone would say they were right..... even though every experienced diver and every experienced instructor responding on the previous thread upheld the opinion that the instructor was key.

This is why were are here right now.

R..

 

[boulderjohn]

Maybe my English IS incomprehensible?!?

Is mine?

I have said as clearly as I can that one person's observations cannot possibly mean diddly squat in terms of the world-wide scope of things. PADI alone issues about 900,000 total certifications (at all levels) worldwide per year. I don't know what other agencies add to that total. What percentage of those do I witness?

But if you insist on my generalizing about the entirety of scuba instruction from my personal experiences, I'll do it for you.

A couple decades ago.I was certified in 3 days. I didn't know it then, but I later learned they were able to do that by skipping a lot of standards. My one pool session was a couple hours long, and the pool was 5 feet deep. I only set up my equipment once. I did no swimming or floating skills. In the open water, I did not do any underwater compass skills or a CESA. I acted as the receiver in an OOA situation but not a donor. I don't remember it all well enough to recollect how many other skills were skipped. As far as evident diving skills are concerned, I honestly believe I was at the top of the class. Some of the other students were pretty sketchy.

I have never, ever witness scuba instruction as incomplete as that since then. All the classes I have seen taught in recent years met all the standards, as have those of others I witnessed teaching in the programs in which I worked.

I can therefore conclude that all scuba instruction worldwide today is far, far superior to the way it was done when I learned a couple decades ago.

 

[Wookie]

Is mine?

I have said as clearly as I can that one person's observations cannot possibly mean diddly squat in terms of the world-wide scope of things. PADI alone issues about 900,000 total certifications (at all levels) worldwide per year. I don't know what other agencies add to that total. What percentage of those do I witness?

But if you insist on my generalizing about the entirety of scuba instruction from my personal experiences, I'll do it for you.

A couple decades ago.I was certified in 3 days. I didn't know it then, but I later learned they were able to do that by skipping a lot of standards. My one pool session was a couple hours long, and the pool was 5 feet deep. I only set up my equipment once. I did no swimming or floating skills. In the open water, I did not do any underwater compass skills or a CESA. I acted as the receiver in an OOA situation but not a donor. I don't remember it all well enough to recollect how many other skills were skipped. As far as evident diving skills are concerned, I honestly believe I was at the top of the class. Some of the other students were pretty sketchy.

I have never, ever witness scuba instruction as incomplete as that since then. All the classes I have seen taught in recent years met all the standards, as have those of others I witnessed teaching in the programs in which I worked.

I can therefore conclude that all scuba instruction worldwide today is far, far superior to the way it was done when I learned a couple decades ago.

Well, in 1995 my Open Water course took a little over a month to complete, with classroom sessions before and after every pool and open water session. I have not seen a course since that was so thorough and in-depth, including those that I taught my self. So I must say that in the intervening years, Scuba instruction has gotten terrible, and I am an awful instructor. So nanny nanny boo-boo.

 

[diverintheflesh]

"...Scuba instruction has gotten terrible, and I am an awful instructor. So nanny nanny boo-boo. "

Anyone that is that self-deprecating is my kind of instructor! Sign me up!

 

[Wookie]

Sorry, I don't teach OW any more.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

"...Scuba instruction has gotten terrible, and I am an awful instructor. So nanny nanny boo-boo. "

Anyone that is that self-deprecating is my kind of instructor! Sign me up!

Sadly, Rob has helped me become a worse instructor as well.

Kidding aside, what exactly is going to be done with the data that instruction in the past was better or worse? Either way, I don't care. Or should I?

 

[TMHeimer]

Yes, bring on myth #2.

 

[Diving Dubai]

In all this debate (to which I'm skimming over) I have not seen the mention of Students

By this I mean, instructors and agencies are judged by divers capabilities post cert.

We all know and agree that not all instructors are equal. However...

As an example, people learn to drive. They are taught by different people (parents, professional drivers etc) Some stay with small town cars never driving much, some go further and end up driving trucks

I think we can all admit that once we passed our driving tests we forgot or chose to ignore things we'd been taught - because:

a) We couldn't be bothered
b) It wasn't' cool and our friends told us differently
c) We knew better (or our ego's did)

When someone has an accident with a vehicle, you don't blame their instructor, nor their agency, you blame the person driving.

My point being, I'm certain you could put some students with the finest instructors and they could perform well for the duration of the lessons - and then go off and do what they want.

So perhaps the default should not always be the agency or the instructor, because they may have taught someone very well, its just that person can't be bothered.

And yes I see this a lot with infrequent divers. they know they have bad buoyancy, trim, weighting etc. They don't want to change. They go underwater on their infrequent dives, see what they want to see (or not) and go home.

I'm positive they weren't taught that way, but that's the way they choose to dive.