Does my rig default me as a "Bad Buddy"?

[flots am]

I think I did a human thing. I occasionally do that so I try to retain some humility when judging the actions of others. People who throw out phrases like stupid are stroking their own egos more than offering anything constructive IMO.

Do you not believe that people can be stupid?

I've done stupid things and am quite happy to tell anybody about them. They have been some of the most valuable learning experiences in my life. I tell my students about people doing stupid things all the time.

Just to give you some other things to complain about, here's a partial list of "Stupid Human Tricks" that I tell my students about, without using "feel good" "everybody is above average" language. I actually use the words/phrases "stupid," "dumb," "moron" and "death wish" as appropriate. Know what? It makes an impression and they don't repeat the mistake.

• Entering an physical or virtual overhead without the proper equipment, training and buddy
• Following anybody on a dive that can't be safely ended without the dive leader.
• "Accidentally" running out of air
• "Accidentally" running out of no-deco time
• Entering the water without personally verifying your own tank pressure and ability to breathe, as the very last step before leaving the boat.
• Doing any dive where someone says "Follow me, you'll be fine"

Doing these things is stupid. Not identifying them as such is doing a huge disservice. I believe the practice has it's roots in the new Public School fetish for "self-esteem".

flots.

 

[markmud]

I think I did a human thing. I occasionally do that so I try to retain some humility when judging the actions of others. People who throw out phrases like stupid are stroking their own egos more than offering anything constructive IMO.

We all make mistakes. I choose to exist in an environment that acknowledges them when they happen, encourages people to address them, and then to try again. Language like stupid or idiot doesn't fit into that paradigm.


I may curse myself out internally for being so stupid (which I did at the time) but if you do so, I'll just tune you out and any learning opportunity will be lost. Being a father I've learned that lesson the hard way.

I'm also a Physical Rehab Assist. and deal with humans trying and failing and trying again; and the negative self talk that goes along with it. Nothing good ever comes of that and I spend a bunch of time countering it.

I don't dwell on the failures except long enough to learn from them.

Hey DaleC,

I agree with you up to a point. The person in rehab has a physical condition that requires painful work--they have no choice in the matter. The person blowing through his/her air at depth made a conscious decision to do a stupid thing.

There is only one truly important thing to remember when SCUBA diving: Always have enough air to safely get back to the surface. This rule includes a contingency for every issue that may cause you to run out of gas. Fishing line, nets, silted-out in a wreck or cave, a stupid dive buddy, and etc--they don't matter--never run out of breathing gas!

markm

---------- Post added December 1st, 2012 at 07:04 AM ----------

Do you not believe that people can be stupid?

I've done stupid things and am quite happy to tell anybody about them. They have been some of the most valuable learning experiences in my life. I tell my students about people doing stupid things all the time.

Just to give you some other things to complain about, here's a partial list of "Stupid Human Tricks" that I tell my students about, without using "feel good" "everybody is above average" language. I actually use the words/phrases "stupid," "dumb," "moron" and "death wish" as appropriate. Know what? It makes an impression and they don't repeat the mistake.

• Entering an physical or virtual overhead without the proper equipment, training and buddy
• Following anybody on a dive that can't be safely ended without the diver leader.
• "Accidentally" running out of air
• "Accidentally" running out of no-deco time
• Entering the water without personally verifying your own tank pressure and ability to breathe, as the very last step before leaving the boat.
• Doing any dive where someone says "Follow me, you'll be fine"

Doing these things is stupid. Not identifying them as such is doing a huge disservice. I believe the practice has it's roots in the new Public School fetish for "self-esteem".

flots.

Hey Flots,

You should label those as STUPID things to do.

markm

---------- Post added December 1st, 2012 at 07:10 AM ----------

I'm a solo diver and a poster boy for non-DIR diving. However, if I had a GF who dove, I'd get a long hose... or equip her with a pony.

Drbill:

Ockhams Razor, Lex Parsimoni, the law of succinctness. Your reply qualifies.

My opinion: Get a real pony rig, and a longer hose.

markm

 

[TSandM]

It is interesting to read the little argument above. I think there is plenty of research in many areas (not just diving) to suggest that an awful lot of accidents and incidents are due to human error. In any area where safety is a major concern, people make efforts to create equipment that is either fail-safe or at least has redundant systems or controls, to minimize the likelihood that the human operator can cause (or permit) a malfunction. On top of that, checklists and team checks are used to avoid errors of omission. In many systems, the humans involved receive extensive training in running their procedures and in trouble-shooting, so that errors in process are reduced (but never, unfortunately, eliminated).

I have chosen to dive in what has been termed a "Culture of Safety". That's a world in which planning is not omitted and is always shared; where checklists are de rigeur, and where situational awareness (Dale's issue) is pounded into us.

Nonetheless, people aren't perfect. I wrote a while back about getting in the water with a half-full tank . . . I was hurrying, and missed THREE separate steps in my normal routine, where the problem would have been detected. As it turned out, I still had plenty of gas for the proposed dive, but that was luck, nothing else.

You cannot eliminate human error. What this thread has largely been about is what steps, in equipment and procedure, you choose to take to prepare for it.

Dale, my guess would be that you have NEVER missed a reg switch since that incident? I know I have never failed to check my tank pre-dive since mine, and I didn't run out of gas -- I just embarrassed myself.

 

[DaleC]

Lynne, true. I also spent a lot of time thinking about what I do when I dive (task loading) and how it could take away from my attention to situational awareness.

_______________________

If one uses the term stupid or idiot to refer to themselves that is ok. It can even be used to "humanize" a person in a position of authority so that students can better relate to them.

People who use those terms to describe others are just being impatient or lack enough tools in their teaching toolbox to properly transmit information. Those terms only serve to label or pidgeon hole. We are talking diving, not the Marine Corp and there is no need to mentally or emotionally deconstruct a student to teach them.

Stupid labels an activity but does not describe it (functionally) nor does it identify the problems associated with the activity or how those issues affect the whole. A good educator does those things so the student understands the reasoning behind the proscription. A lesser instructor just says "that's stupid" and expects the students not to do it with no intelligent rationale to refer to.



As for public education's fetish for self esteem. Easy to talk about in derogatory terms but I have seen it first hand from both sides.

My father was dyslexic, but in his day they just called him "stupid", so he quit elementary school to work selling newspapers on the street corner. Believing he was "stupid" (why not, the teachers told him so) he went on to be a good man, hide his stupidity well, and work at jobs (sometimes two at a time) that required no reading. He remained functionally illiterate until his death. So much for old school "telling it like it is".

My children attend a "modern" school that focuses on self esteem. Learning disabilities and errors are addressed early and dealt with, the kids are encouraged to respect their fellows and to take responsibility for their own learning experience. My 11 year old daughter just conducted her own parent/teacher/student conference in which she identified and discussed her own strengths and weaknesses. My son, who was born premature and received additional 1 on 1 attention for a speech deficit, is now on track to be an honour student...

You can imagine that the word stupid or idiot does not come up in that school system and which system I wish my father had been exposed to.

As for diving being some how different from the rest of life - no it's not. Lot's of activities are enjoyable, but dangerous, if approached wrong. Try riding a bicycle in traffic.

 

[flots am]

My father was dyslexic, but in his day they just called him "stupid", so he quit elementary school to work selling newspapers on the street corner. Believing he was "stupid" (why not, the teachers told him so) he went on to be a good man, hide his stupidity well, and work at jobs (sometimes two at a time) that required no reading. He remained functionally illiterate until his death. So much for old school "telling it like it is".

While unfortunate, your father's experience with misdiagnoses in school has absolutely nothing to do with telling someone that a potentially fatal mistake is a stupid thing to do.

Saying something using non-politically-correct language makes a lasting impression. If anybody is offended, all I can say is that I'll take someone who thinks I'm an a**hole, over attending a funeral any day of the week.

flots.

 

[markmud]

While unfortunate, your father's experience with misdiagnoses in school has absolutely nothing to do with telling someone that a potentially fatal mistake is a stupid thing to do.

Saying something using non-politically-correct language makes a lasting impression. If anybody is offended, all I can say is that I'll take someone who thinks I'm an a**hole, over attending a funeral any day of the week.

flots.

Flots,

You and I must be old-school. I am dyslexic and was diagnosed incorrectly in grade school as the village idiot. Then, I aced the battery of tests the school gave me. Then the school claimed I had a discipline issue--with my Dad--a discipline issue? No way.

A stupid act does mean you are a mentally challenged individual.

Ananchronism: the definition is MarkM. I accept that.

markm

---------- Post added December 1st, 2012 at 03:35 PM ----------

TsandM,

I dive with your "culture of safety" becuase I am the dyslexic village idiot who does stupid things occasionally. I always have a pony bottle rig on me; a pony rig that is capable of getting me to a "safe harbor" depending on the dive I am doing.

markm

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Hey DaleC,

There is only one truly important thing to remember when SCUBA diving: Always have enough air to safely get back to the surface. This rule includes a contingency for every issue that may cause you to run out of gas. Fishing line, nets, silted-out in a wreck or cave, a stupid dive buddy, and etc--they don't matter--never run out of breathing gas!

Really?
The ONE important thing?

I can think of a things that are a lot more urgent and important when diving.

Were you taught this or is it your own idea?

 

[TSandM]

I can think of a things that are a lot more urgent and important when diving.

Really? I think the two imperatives are to have enough gas to breathe, and not hold your breath. Everything else is rather secondary, really.

 

[DaleC]

While unfortunate, your father's experience with misdiagnoses in school has absolutely nothing to do with telling someone that a potentially fatal mistake is a stupid thing to do.

Saying something using non-politically-correct language makes a lasting impression. If anybody is offended, all I can say is that I'll take someone who thinks I'm an a**hole, over attending a funeral any day of the week.

flots.

He was not mis-diagnosed, he was called stupid. Probably by someone who thought they were a great teacher but that some kids couldn't be helped because they were... well, stupid.

There is no immunization connected with someone thinking you are an A hole that precludes you attending a funeral - both could happen. You could be the A hole who attended the funeral. Or, conversely, there could be no funeral despite the fact you were an A hole. But the real important point is that you do not need to be an A hole to prevent funerals.

Let's look at going OOA.
What does calling it stupid do.
It labels that activity (and by association the person who performs it). High fives all around. Mission completed.
but hold on.. going OOA is not something you do - no one sets out to intentionally go OOA.
It's the end result of some other activity (or lack there of)
ie. improper gas planning, not checking your spg, following someone else's dive plan, losing situational awareness, task loading etc...
How did labeling the result help to address the precursors?
It didn't.

I went OOA because... I became too focused on capturing a wreck with the new video light array I built. I wanted to step up my videography game and capture specific sequences of images instead of just randomly videoing what I dove past (not so stupid really). I realized immediately what was happening (OOA) because of prior training (not so stupid to have done that) and did not panic (not so stupid in any circumstance) but rather, switched to the redundant air source I always take with me on deeper dives (not so stupid a strategy overall). Prior to the event I understood all about task loading but on this occasion it snuck up on me in a way I simply didn't anticipate. It was a failure of situational awareness, a lapse on my part, a good lesson to be learned for sure but.. I struggle to see where labeling it, or me, as stupid would have somehow fixed what happened in any meaningful way.

 

[CT-Rich]

Flots,

You and I must be old-school. I am dyslexic and was diagnosed incorrectly in grade school as the village idiot. Then, I aced the battery of tests the school gave me. Then the school claimed I had a discipline issue--with my Dad--a discipline issue? No way.

A stupid act does mean you are a mentally challenged individual.

Ananchronism: the definition is MarkM. I accept that.

markm

---------- Post added December 1st, 2012 at 03:35 PM ----------

TsandM,

I dive with your "culture of safety" becuase I am the dyslexic village idiot who does stupid things occasionally. I always have a pony bottle rig on me; a pony rig that is capable of getting me to a "safe harbor" depending on the dive I am doing.

markm

I consider myself old school also, certified in 1980, I still dive much of my original gear. Some of the stuff, gear that I dove in 1980, I wouldn't bother with. My early jacket BCD was a pain in the backside, I have stopped diving with tables (other than as a planning reference) and switched over to a dive computer and am switching over to a pony rig instead of an octo. I leave some of my attitude in the 1980's too. Calling someone an idiot or dumb can stay there. I notice that that flots has switched to calling action dumb instead of people since the start of this thread. You can do all sorts of dumb things, doesn't make you dumb, not learning from your mistakes is the primary exception to that rule.

The problem back in the day was people didn't see the difference between different and dumb. Dyslexic might make reading difficult, but it doesn't make you dumb. The expectation to day is that if an error is made (whether diving or reading) there is an underlieing cause (task loading or dyslexia or some other cause) that needs to be addressed. Saying someone or something is dumb really doesn't address the root source and shed no meaningful light on changes that will alter the situation (in this case making the OP's rig more user friendly in the event of an OOA or how a student could be assisted in learning skills or work arounds that would give them a better life).

Dumb and idiot are effectively meaningless terms for an eductational discussion.