Does my rig default me as a "Bad Buddy"?

[flots am]

Let's look at going OOA.

OK. You actually sound serious, so I'll bite.

What does calling it stupid do.

It makes people thing they shouldn't do it, which was the intent.

There are many stupid activities and normal people typically try to avoid them. Things like walking into a cop bar and saying "Give me all your money!" Or bumper surfing on the interstate.

It labels that activity (and by association the person who performs it). High fives all around. Mission completed.

Yep.

but hold on.. going OOA is not something you do - no one sets out to intentionally go OOA.
It's the end result of some other activity (or lack there of)
ie. improper gas planning, not checking your spg, following someone else's dive plan, losing situational awareness, task loading etc...

Nope. This is all an irrelevant smoke screen. It doesn't matter if you run across the Lost City of Atlantis. There is nothing underwater that's more important than not being dead.

How did labeling the result help to address the precursors? It didn't.

The "precursors" are irrlevant. There are only two questions that really matter on a recreational dive: "Do I have enough air left to safely continue the dive?" and "Do I have enough air to safely end the dive?"

Watch your SPG/computer, stay close to your buddy, and keep your skills sharp and you won't have to worry about what people say about you when you have a close call or worse.

flots.

 

[Tigerman]

...and equipment failures are still non-existant...

 

[flots am]

...and equipment failures are still non-existant...

"Watch your SPG/computer, stay close to your buddy, and keep your skills sharp and you won't have to worry about what people say about you when you have a close call or worse."

Equipment failures that cause an air delivery failure are actually quite rare, however the bold part above will take care of it nicely.

flots.

 

[markmud]

Really?
The ONE important thing?

I can think of a things that are a lot more urgent and important when diving.

Were you taught this or is it your own idea?

Hey dumpsterdiver,

You got me. I did not edit my post and got caught using an adverb(?) where I should not have. I got hyperbolic when I should have been more measured. It was a stupid action on my part.

This thread has gone down several rabbit trails (which is common with threads that are 7 pages long), and the context of what we were discussing is whether or not it is a stupid act for someone to run out of gas. It clearly is.

Another person posting on this thread got jumped because he did not contextualize his post well. I knew what he meant and, essentially, asked him to clarify. He did.

Back to your point: Will you please list in chronological order, all actions taken by a SCUBA diver that are more important than having breathing gas?

Scenarios:

Ooops! I accidently overstayed at depth and now I have to perform staged decompression. Oh yeah, I have enough gas to get me to my deco bar that has a surface supplied second stage secured to it. Also, my pony rig is full. No problem.

Ooops! I got caught in a fishing net. OK. Don't panick...don't turn and flail...get my scissors out and start cutting. Well that's done...sure glad I used the rule of thirds to plan this dive, because I still have enough gas to do a safe ascent!

I am still trying to come up with a scenario that is more important than air.

I am not an expert diver. Please help me!

Oh wait a minute...I don't need air because my SOB buddy will be right there to offer her octo even though she is in staged decompression mode and needs all of her own air. PADI was right, I can rely on my buddy for air when I get stupid!

Air...We don't need no stink'n air!

As you can tell, I am still stuck on this breathing thing...I LIKE IT!

Help me out here!

markm

---------- Post added December 1st, 2012 at 08:44 PM ----------

...and equipment failures are still non-existant...

Hey Tigerman,

Equipment failures are not a problem if you are trained to deal with them. Practicing contingency plans and having redundant gear is how I "try" to be a self-sufficient diver.

However, someday YOUR number will be called. Your luck will run out. God will punch your ticket. St. Peter will request your presence at the pearly gates.

When it is your turn to die, aint noth'n go'in to save ya! Please, try to postpone that day.

Redundancy on the ocean is not an option...it is a requirement if you want to avoid suicide.

I know the ocean very well.

markm

 

[gcarter]

What does calling it stupid do.
It labels that activity (and by association the person who performs it). High fives all around. Mission completed.

And herein is found the fallacy.

Labelling an activity as stupid does NOT by association label the person who performs it as stupid. Smart people do stupid things all the time, and calling what they have done stupid does not make them less smart.

The person who does such labelling by association is the one with the problem. The person who refuses to label a stupid act as such out of some misguided sense that to do so is to automatically label the perpetrator as stupid is the one with the problem.

When my kids do stupid things, I tell them they have done stupid things. I have never called THEM stupid - they are actually both quite bright. But that does not negate the fact that they have done something stupid and if their self esteem requires that I LIE to them and call it something else, then they have bigger problems to deal with.

Whatever other arguments or positions are being advanced in this thread, whatever their merits, this is a fallacy.

Back to your regular programming.

 

[TSandM]

I am not a stupid woman; nobody makes it through medical school and residency if they are stupid.

I have dived WAY beyond my limits when following a guide.

I almost got into the water in Australia with my tank turned off.

I have begun a dive with a half-full tank, because I failed three pre-dive checks.

I have done a technical dive without a review of the dive plan and an equipment check. I've actually done it more than once; every time it was because I was diving with someone I respected enough that I didn't want to press them to do something they clearly didn't think was necessary.

I have done stupid things. They were stupid. The word is appropriate, and I would not be offended by anyone applying that word to what I did. I am not a stupid person, but I have made stupid mistakes, and we all do. Labelling them as what they are is not judgmental of the person.

 

[DaleC]

Again, one can label their own actions anyway they want (because you already know all the caveats) - it's not the same as labeling another. People can be thoughtless (without thought) and/or careless (without care); both of which are correctable, temporary states of mind but if you do something stupid isn't it because you are stupid. The word describes something done by an uneducated mind incapable of learning - is that what you intend to communicate to your kids/students?

Here's what they will discover if they look up stupid in Websters:
Definition of STUPID

1.
a : slow of mind : obtuse
b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner
c : lacking intelligence or reason : brutish

Go ahead splitting hairs if you want. They'll internalize it their own way no matter your intentions. I know that whether a student is told "he" is stupid or "his actions" are stupid he will feel like **** either way. Thinking one needs to "lie" because one cannot use words like stupid or idiot says a lot more about the educator than the student.

From an educational standpoint; "stupid" and "idiot" are discussion enders - not builders. If you want people to correct a behavior you need them to engage in the conversation, so they can learn. Call an activity "stupid" and see how many people in a group setting want to discuss their involvement in it. Say "only an idiot would do that" and see how many want to seek clarification because they don't get it.

An educator is not someone who knows something about a subject; it's someone who's focus is on the best way to communicate that subject to another. Few "educators" feel they need to resort to terms like stupid or idiot.

---------- Post added December 1st, 2012 at 10:17 PM ----------

Lynne you posted when I did.

When I look at the four examples above I have to ask you, in those cases were you acting like a stupid person or were you being careless, too trusting, rushed etc...

To say you did something stupid is the same as saying you were momentarily acting like a stupid person - I just don't see you doing that even if you made a mistake. A stupid person would keep making that mistake because they were incapable of learning. Stupid people do stupid things. How can an intelligent person become temporarily incapable of learning (CVA's and narcotics not withstanding)?

 

[gcarter]

You can be thoughtless (without thought) and/or careless (without care); both of which are correctable but if you do something stupid isn't it because you are stupid. The word describes something done by an uneducated mind incapable of learning - is that what you intend to communicate to your kids?

Here's what they will discover if they look up stupid in Websters:
Definition of STUPID

1

a : slow of mind : obtuse
b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner
c : lacking intelligence or reason : brutish



Oh, that's what Dad meant.

Go ahead splitting hairs if you want. They'll internalize it their own way no matter your intentions. I know that whether a student is told "he" is stupid or "his actions" are stupid he will feel like **** either way. Thinking one needs to "lie" because one cannot use words like stupid or idiot says a lot more about the educator than the student.

But why not care about your kids self esteem? They are going to face so many challenges to it during adolescence regardless that it might be nice to know they have one place where the identity and behavior they are still trying to define won't be negatively labeled.

From an educational standpoint; "stupid" and "idiot" are discussion enders - not enhancers. If you want people to correct a behavior you need them to engage in the conversation, so they can learn. Call an activity "stupid" and see how many people in a group setting want to discuss their involvement in it. Say "only an idiot would do that" and see how many want to seek clarification because they don't get it.

Nice pedantic response. Nice deflection.

At no point did I say I do not care about my kids self esteem. To suggest otherwise is a lie. I do not pander or lie to them, that's all. I fail to see how that is a negative. We do not need any more Honey Boo Boos.

My kids have great self esteem - in large part because of exceptionally good self awareness, and because I have taught them that their self esteem is not reliant or dependent in any way upon the words of others, hence the word self, and because they own their behaviours, their feelings, and the consequencesof what they do. I don't give a fiddler's fart what you think or me or say to me, my SELF esteem comes from SELF. This is what my kids have learned. Question what people say and make up your own mind, this is what my kids have learned.

When my kids engage in negative behaviour it is labeled as such. When they engage in positive behaviour it is labelled as such. "identity and behavior they are still trying to define" will be labeled as what they are. That's my role - to help them learn and define. It's called parenting, something way too few "parents" do any more because they listen to the feel good clap trap that does not prepare kids for the real world and is more concerned about how they feel than who they are and become. I don't care if my kids like me (although it is nice if they do, and most of the time they do), I care if my kids are prepared for life.

You throw out the phrase "only an idiot would do that" - which I have not put into evidence, and do not use. You are perverting what I have said with this example, and this does not represent in any way what I have said. You are being intellectually dishonest.

So if my kids do something stupid I will say what they did is stupid and question why someone with their intelligence did such a careless or unthinking thing in spite of the fact that they know better. I will be a better parent for it, and they will become better adults for it. I see the proof of that growing in front of my eyes on a daily basis.

That you cannot separatethe behaviour from the individual is YOUR problem.

 

[Bonairetrip]

The "precursors" are irrlevant. There are only two questions that really matter on a recreational dive: "Do I have enough air left to safely continue the dive?" and "Do I have enough air to safely end the dive?"

I am also old school and was certified in an era when equipment was less reliable, SPGs were only just then being common and only instructors would ever own an octo. Yet I use more reliable gear and things like SPGs....

I agree in one sense that precursor events don't matter -- at that point it is all about responding to an emergency in an appropriate manner. Doesn't matter whether it was a series of poor decisions or freakishly bad luck equipment failure -- you need to respond to an OOA in essentially the same manner regardless of cause.

That said, I think we both agree that divers should avoid an OOA situation in the first place. Well, learning from the OOA event is all about the precursor events. I agree that every diver should treat an OOA experience as a serious event. Something to be dissected, discussed and evaluated. We know that having at an OOA is bad...how did we get there and what should have been different. Look at the NTSB reports or air accidents -- they stop with "the plane crashed" -- but most of the report is what caused that event to occur.

I also disagree there are only two questions in a recreational dive. I agree yours are critically important but there are other questions. For me, they all relate to "can I safely make/continue this dive?" That captures everything from fitness to dive (physical, emotional, mental) to the objective risks (navigation, viz, temp, current, boat traffic, etc.) to gas planning to equipment (appropriate, in good repair, etc.).

 

[DaleC]

You throw out the phrase "only an idiot would do that" - which I have not put into evidence, and do not use. You are perverting what I have said with this example, and this does not represent in any way what I have said. You are being intellectually dishonest.

That you cannot separatethe behaviour from the individual is YOUR problem.

I didn't introduce that language and I didn't direct it towards you. Perhaps if you let off on the emotionally charged vocabulary you could learn to read more accurately.

Anyways, I feel like I am beginning to beat a dead horse and do not wish to proceed any further down a road of personal attacks. We all have our own opinions. I've said my piece and recognize that not everyone shares my POV. Unless something new arises I think I shall just say good night.