Donation of primary or secondary?

[Charred]

Frankly (as a purely personal opinion), I would never consider any other config than either a classic octo setup or a hog setup. Those are standardized; the former with the run-of-the-mill PADI OW diver, the latter among the tech and tech-wannabe crowd. Other configs increase the risk of a case of SHTF.

Is the classic setup really standardized? Yea golden triangle, but how many actually have in there? Most I see don't as they have it on their right side. How about the clipping it off? Tons of options here and obvious none are good which is why you see so many people dragging their Octos. I still have no idea how some OOA diver is supposed to "take" a reg out of some of those holders and not rip the mouth pieces right off the reg. Adrenaline and all.

I think golden triangle is just a idea that has serious challenges to implement in the real world. This is exactly why I abandon it for primary donate - I could not come up with an octo arrangement I would trust with life of my wife and daughter.

 

[boulderjohn]

OK.

The proper thing to do in that case is get out of the way and let the OOA diver take the regulator.

Looks awfully like "secondary (or primary, depending on your buddy's preferences) grab" to me.

[SIGH]
Try reading it again.

OK, back to reading it again. Let me help.

The proper thing to do in that case is get out of the way and let the OOA diver take the regulator.

I was speaking of the case in which the OOA diver reaches for your alternate. I was speaking only of that case. I said that if you were to instead follow your training in the all-too-likely event that this happens, you could cause a problem. I never advocated that approach for the OOA, but I did say that it is what happened in every case I knew of personally.

 

[MichaelMc]

Is it? The classic hog setup for primary donate does IMO introduce more complexity than a standard octo setup does. IME there's a much bigger risk of tangled hoses with the former, and it really isn't compatible with wearing a snorkel. So - again IMO - it requires a better trained diver with better routines than the average resort diver to give the diver a net advantage.

I think a bungee necklace alternate and primary donate makes the most sense for basic or advanced divers. A bungee necklace keeps the diver's alternate air the most secure and handy underwater for them and provides a better donate method for responding to an OOA diver.

Yet there are two points that need to be addressed for basic divers. Necklaces and snorkels, and having something around the neck.

For basic divers, i.e., 40" primary, 22" necklaced alternate, don'ing and ditching gear with a necklace is more complex than 'put this jacket or BP/W on and buckle it'. It adds steps of 'make sure your backup air is in place' and 'detach your backup air from you'. But it is usually a complexity on the surface and it makes sure that their alternate air, a very key underwater safety element, is right where they need it, mostly no matter what violent disruption happens underwater. It also reinforces awareness of their alternate air; which is not a bad thing.

For a basic diver, with a bungie with some extra length, putting the necklace on and off over the mask and snorkel takes a little care to not tangle the snorkel and dislodge the mask. But it is not hard. And both normally happen on the surface. If it has to happen underwater, go slow in any drill, it is a good test of comfort level, or break free or cut the bungee. Both divers have safe line cutting devices on them, right?

For an advanced diver, with a very snug bungee for no hands access, don'ing over a snorkel becomes more to very difficult. Plus, a long hose and snorkel endangers the OOA smoothness. So advanced divers in those setups stow or ditch the snorkel.

A second point is having something around your neck, that might be viewed as a strangulation hazard. But that thing has your back up air, which is really handy for that breathing underwater thing. Far more relevant than any strangulation hazard from a bungie that can be rigged to detach if pulled violently, or can easily be cut.

Tear free bungee's have many approaches. It is a trade off between it being there if you need it and being able to don it, and it being able to tear free, if you want that. Here are some references: How to Tie a Regulator Bungee Necklace There was also a reference to surgical tubing with a cut in it into which is threaded the ‘cord’ part, not the holder part, from a zip tie.

From a dive shop's perspective, I'm not sure if helps or hurts, but a diver who realizes far better that they will be depending on their alternate regulator in an OOA situation might be prone to buy two good regulators instead of one good one and one so so one, based on the so so or not as smooth breathing one just being for their buddy in the midst of a panic prone situation.

Edit: add tear free references.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

As a former EMT, and a brand new diver, we were always taught as a first responder that your safety is paramount, and that you can't help someone if you get hurt or put yourself in trouble. Carrying that thought into diving, with my limited experience being 2 shore dives for cert, and 5 more shallow shore dives that week, I would not want to take a reg out of my mouth to give away if there was another option. Obviously getting a reg ripped out of your mouth by a panicked diver is out of your control, but that should be discussed during pre dive. If folks saying donate the primary because they don't know if the secondary will work, why even carry a secondary?

This is why I also teach old style buddy breathing from a single reg in my OW classes. Just did that Tuesday night.

With primary donate you should know if your octo is working because you tested it when you got in the water. If one is not sure that the octo will work, why the hell are you even getting in the water with it? No octo is better because then you know you have to buddy breathe and are ready for it.

If you are doing primary donate the standard 28 inch hose is a bad idea. Most use at least a 40 with many using 5ft and 7ft hoses. The octo is bungeed under your chin so you always know where it is and it should be as good a performer as the primary. Identical in fact is best.

Once I got a little experience I started to think about how stupid it was to have a cheaper reg on the octo. Or one that was not tuned as well as the primary. I want a diver I am giving a reg to when they are stressed to not have to work at breathing it. Or if I need to use it that that thing better breathe every bit as good as my primary.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I think a bungee necklace alternate and primary donate makes the most sense for basic or advanced divers. A bungee necklace keeps the diver's alternate air the most secure and handy underwater for them and provides a better donate method for responding to an OOA diver.

Yet there are two points that need to be addressed for basic divers. Necklaces and snorkels, and having something around the neck.

For basic divers, i.e., 40" primary, 22" necklaced alternate, don'ing and ditching gear with a necklace is more complex than 'put this jacket or BP/W on and buckle it'. It adds steps of 'make sure your backup air is in place' and 'detach your backup air from you'. But it is usually a complexity on the surface and it makes sure that their alternate air, a very key underwater safety element, is right where they need it, mostly no matter what violent disruption happens underwater. It also reinforces awareness of their alternate air; which is not a bad thing.

For a basic diver, with a bungie with some extra length, putting the necklace on and off over the mask and snorkel takes a little care to not tangle the snorkel and dislodge the mask. But it is not hard. And both normally happen on the surface. If it has to happen underwater, go slow in any drill, it is a good test of comfort level, or break free or cut the bungee. Both divers have safe line cutting devices on them, right?

For an advanced diver, with a very snug bungee for no hands access, don'ing over a snorkel becomes more to very difficult. Plus, a long hose and snorkel endangers the OOA smoothness. So advanced divers in those setups stow or ditch the snorkel.

A second point is having something around your neck, that might be viewed as a strangulation hazard. But that thing has your back up air, which is really handy for that breathing underwater thing. Far more relevant than any strangulation hazard from a bungie that can be rigged to detach if pulled violently, or can easily be cut.

Tear free bungee's have many approaches. It is a trade off between it being there if you need it and being able to don it, and it being able to tear free, if you want that. Here are some references: How to Tie a Regulator Bungee Necklace There was also a reference to surgical tubing with a cut in it into which is threaded the ‘wire’ part, not the holder part, from a zip tie.

From a dive shop's perspective, I'm not sure if helps or hurts, but a diver who realizes far better that they will be depending on their alternate regulator in an OOA situation might be prone to buy two good regulators instead of one good one and one so so one, based on the so so or not as smooth breathing one just being for their buddy in the midst of a panic prone situation.

Edit: add tear free references.

Better is to just leave the snorkel in the bag or roll/fold it and stuff into a pocket. I have a snorkel during training. It's in my pocket unless we are actually snorkeling. Otherwise it's useless and a potential hazard. Those big gimmicky dry/semi dry snorkels are even worse. I don't even like to see divers buy them but some do.

 

[MichaelMc]

Better is to just leave the snorkel in the bag or roll/fold it and stuff into a pocket.

That would be the "stow or ditch" option... Some agencies require carrying them and use them in drills... So ditch the snorkel from dive 1 seemed an extra, and unnecessary, controversy to add.

When I say loose necklace over snorkel is more difficult but not hard, I say that from personal experience having successfully drilled to to do it for underwater, but not kneeling, ditch and don with BP/W, tucked long hose, snorkel, and crotch strap under a weight belt. Before having gone to stowing the snorkel. If you have to use a snorkel, a bungee makes it more difficult. But in itself not that hard.

 

[Edward3c]

Handbags @ 20 paces.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Is the classic setup really standardized? Yea golden triangle, but how many actually have in there? Most I see don't as they have it on their right side. How about the clipping it off? Tons of options here and obvious none are good which is why you see so many people dragging their Octos. I still have no idea how some OOA diver is supposed to "take" a reg out of some of those holders and not rip the mouth pieces right off the reg. Adrenaline and all.

I think golden triangle is just a idea that has serious challenges to implement in the real world. This is exactly why I abandon it for primary donate - I could not come up with an octo arrangement I would trust with life of my wife and daughter.

Golden triangle is a joke. I see too many divers who think the triangle extends from the right hip near to the right butt cheek over to the left hip and up to the chin. All of the BC's at the shop I train with and my personal ones have a holder made from surgical tubing and a few zip ties on the right shoulder d ring. While some also have a d ring near the pocket we never put an octo holder that low. Why? In a horizontal position or bad vis, it's invisible. On the right shoulder d ring it's visible vertical or horizontal and easy to find for either the donor or the victim.
Surgical tubing is cheap, easy to find, easy to adjust tension, and on rental gear it doesn't grow legs and walk off.
Snorkel holders kinda work.
Hair ties? yeah but they lose stretch after a while.
Scum ball holders? Disgusting.
The ones that actually go into the mouthpiece? Nah, a loose connection at the split ring could result in the holder going into someone's mouth.
Shove it in a pocket? too slow to deploy
Kink the hose through the d ring? Nah, not a fan of putting undo stress on a hose. Too stiff of a hose and it may also delay deployment.
Keep it simple, cheap, and easy to replace.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

That would be the "stow or ditch" option... Some agencies require carrying them and use them in drills... So ditch the snorkel from dive 1 seemed an extra, and unnecessary, controversy to add.

When I say necklace over snorkel is more difficult but not hard, I say that from personal experience having successfully drilled to to do it for underwater, but not kneeling, ditch and don with BP/W, tucked long hose, snorkel, and crotch strap under a weight belt. Before having gone to stowing the snorkel. If you have to use a snorkel, a bungee makes it more difficult. But in itself not that hard.

Not under water. And how hard is it to shove it under your mask strap when needed? Standards of having it are still met. Nowhere does it say it HAS to be on the mask. But then I've only looked at and have the standards for 9 different agencies in my library. My OW students are told from day one to buy one that's cheap and easy to remove from the mask when you go under the surface.

 

[Storker]

Lots of strong opinions here. I'm a live and let live type of guy. Every choice has its advantages, every choice has its drawbacks. Lots of my buddies prefer a traditional octo setup, but that has its issues and drawbacks. Me, I prefer a hog loop and primary donate, but it has its issues and drawbacks. Here on SB, primary donate is tha bomb, but n00bs need to know that that, too, has its issues and drawbacks. IMO it all boils down to personal preferences and - most important - what you are trained for.

Personally, I prefer a hog loop and primary donate, but I'm not particularly religious about it. Apparently unlike others...