First BP/W purchase

[PerroneFord]

Well,

I've seen DSS wings used in caves by people who USE wings... They hold up fine, and I'd spend my money on one anyday. In fact, I think I'll be ordering one in July.

As to the plate issue, the original poster doesn't live in FL. He will need the weight now. So he should buy the proper plate for conditions. He can pick up an Al plate when he gets to Florida for under $100.

Oh, and I dive both singles and doubles (AL80s) with a SS plate in Florida with no ditchable weight. Many people do. By the time we add up a can light, a plate, backup lights, knife, double regs, etc., we don't need a weightbelt.

 

[steveann]

Our molded in grommets are made of a thermoplastic elastomer. It's a blend of Polypro and natural rubber, very tough. Same stuff has been used for years in auto's for window guide rails and CV boots. The manufacturer ran some tests where they recovered materials from 20 year old cars, reground it and molded new test samples. 20 year old regrind performed at about 90% of what new virgin material did when tested. I'm not too worried. BTW the grommets are actually molded onto the plates, only way to get em off is to cut them off.

Like I said, it's plastic, whether it be good plastic or not. And I'm not sure how it will hold up in the long run compared to metal. Granted, there are a lot of plastics that are extremely durable and with strength characteristics similiar to metals, although they are usually rather cost prohibitive. If the grommets hold up as you claim, all the better. If not, well, then they don't.

????? Our plates are completely finished, fully hand deburred, and then vibratory finished. Can you be more specific?

The plate I got to play with had rather sharp edges on the slots for the "indvidual doubles", if I remember how the rig is set up. The main webbing holes were covered in the plastic, so no sharpies there, but seeing as how wetsuits are not the most resilient to a sharp edge rubbing along them repeatedly, I would be doing a little post-purchase deburring if it were my plate. Of course, again, this is only my opinion.

Our adjustable harness does use velcro on the upper shoulder straps, over 24 square inches loaded in shear. The weight of the rig actually compresses the faces of the velcro together.

And note I did not say anything bad about the velcro, just that it is there, and I'm not sure about it. I like velcro. It's a neat system. It makes for great bedsheets. Just not sure how well velcro will survive in the waterborne world over the long run. Will those straps hold as well twenty years from now as well as they do today? Who knows. With their location, it shouldn't be much of an issue, as they should rarely be adjusted. We'll just have to wait and see how it holds up.

Walmart?? 1050 Ballisitic Nylon outer shell, 138 bonded Nylon thread, top stitched, #10 YKK zippers. 12 mil RF welded urethane inner bladders. Made in the USA.

Like I said, in the little bit I got to play with the rig, it felt more flimsy than the other brands I've gotten to play with. Will it hold up? People are using the wing, and it seems to be doing well. Will it stand the test of time? Well, only time will tell. As my experience with the rig increases, my opinion might change.

I'd be happy to anwser any other questions.


Tobin

I will say out of everything, Tobin, this is the part I like best about your operation, the rapid response, albeit a bit on the defensive this time, but still a response to issues/comments/questions about your rig. Most of the other companies are not as easy to communicate with. Hopefully, the open dialog between yourself, your users, and your detractors makes for a better product. I can't see an innovation in the diving community coming around any time soon, but I believe this will be how it occurs when it does, with men of vision innovating from the ideas of the end-users.

And by the way, I will never say your rig is a POS or any such. It is a nice looking rig. Just has some things I didn't like as much as others.


With regards to the original poster, again, please take everything all of us say with a grain of salt and get out there and find what's right for you. We all are stuck in our ways for the most part, and opinionated arseholes for the other. You'll know what's right for you based on your needs, and you'll know what fits when you put it on your back and feel comfortable in it. Anything you get now will probably last longer than you'll dive for and will outperform even your wildest expectations, even the "Walmart" brands

Steve

 

[Codyjp]

Steveann:
Like I said, it's plastic, whether it be good plastic or not. And I'm not sure how it will hold up in the long run compared to metal. Granted, there are a lot of plastics that are extremely durable and with strength characteristics similiar to metals, although they are usually rather cost prohibitive. If the grommets hold up as you claim, all the better. If not, well, then they don't.


so does this mean you have an all metal regulator, mask and fins?

 

[cool_hardware52]

Like I said, it's plastic, whether it be good plastic or not. And I'm not sure how it will hold up in the long run compared to metal. Granted, there are a lot of plastics that are extremely durable and with strength characteristics similiar to metals, although they are usually rather cost prohibitive. If the grommets hold up as you claim, all the better. If not, well, then they don't.

The material we use is expensive, ~$4/ lbs. It was selected precisely because of it's long proven use in harsh environments, under the hood on autos etc. The real expense however isn't the resin, it's the molds and the labor.

The plate I got to play with had rather sharp edges on the slots for the "indvidual doubles", if I remember how the rig is set up. The main webbing holes were covered in the plastic, so no sharpies there, but seeing as how wetsuits are not the most resilient to a sharp edge rubbing along them repeatedly, I would be doing a little post-purchase deburring if it were my plate. Of course, again, this is only my opinion.

We have a purpose built deburring "bench", sort of like a router table, that's used to break the edges on all the internal slots that aren't over molded. Were the other slots and holes deburred adequately? It's possible we just missed the "Twins" slots on one plate. I'd be more than happy to replace it or rework it.

And note I did not say anything bad about the velcro, just that it is there, and I'm not sure about it. I like velcro. It's a neat system. It makes for great bedsheets. Just not sure how well velcro will survive in the waterborne world over the long run. Will those straps hold as well twenty years from now as well as they do today? Who knows. With their location, it shouldn't be much of an issue, as they should rarely be adjusted. We'll just have to wait and see how it holds up.

I'm just trying to fill in the blanks for the readers who have not seen the gear. Velcro does have a finite life. When loaded in "peel" and or when subject to being cycled frequently it can fail. The Pro-Fit harness loads a generous amount of velcro in shear, and as you note, it's unlikely to be frequently cycled.

Like I said, in the little bit I got to play with the rig, it felt more flimsy than the other brands I've gotten to play with. Will it hold up? People are using the wing, and it seems to be doing well. Will it stand the test of time? Well, only time will tell. As my experience with the rig increases, my opinion might change.

As a practical matter many of the "name brand" wings and BC's that are produced in the US are fabricated by one or maybe two remaining domestic or semi domestic "turn key" inflatables "Job Shops" Before we brought 100% of our wing production in house we used this same shop. Depending on the vintage of the wing in question it is entirely possible that it used materials from the very same roll used to make the other "brand name" wings you might have encountered. We haven't spec'ed some lesser quality, and now that production is in house we have better control of all aspects.

I will say out of everything, Tobin, this is the part I like best about your operation, the rapid response, albeit a bit on the defensive this time, but still a response to issues/comments/questions about your rig. Most of the other companies are not as easy to communicate with. Hopefully, the open dialog between yourself, your users, and your detractors makes for a better product. I can't see an innovation in the diving community coming around any time soon, but I believe this will be how it occurs when it does, with men of vision innovating from the ideas of the end-users.

And by the way, I will never say your rig is a POS or any such. It is a nice looking rig. Just has some things I didn't like as much as others.

I never said you did. I thought your original post to fair, particularly in light of recent events. You stated your opinions, and apparently you have actually seen the gear first hand.

I'm just filling in the blanks. I do want all the feedback. I may not be able to act on every concern or suggestion, but I need to hear them all the same.


Tobin

 

[steveann]

so does this mean you have an all metal regulator, mask and fins?

Nope, My fins and mask and second stage are all plastic. My first stage is metal, with some rubber in it. And I expect to have to replace them sometime. In fact, my fins are looking beat and I'm on my second mask now. On the other hand, I intend on willing my backplate to my heirs. I should never have to buy a backplate ever again.
I don't know if plastic will hold up to that...although i have seen some nice 1970's Aqualung ABS backplates on eBay.

Steve