First regulator - purely recreational vs. tec suitable?

[TheBeepBoop]

Personally love my deep6 signatures. They breath beautifully, the service from deep 6 is also second to none. I sent the regs in for service and even with the shipping it was faster and cheaper than getting my old regs serviced with my LDS.
Plus the price is really good, compared to other brands.

I’ve also heard good things about Dive Rite, but don’t have experience with them.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Hi SB,

Wife and I are fairly new to diving and beginning to consider buying our first set of regs. We are vacation divers and have only dove in tropical waters (Hawaii and FL). That being said we live in the north east and will also be open to local fresh water dive sites in the future (as experiences build up).

I am personally hoping to get into tec diving in a few years. Wife is not. So this also plays a factor in forming our decisions. Ideally we want to own one set of good gears and be set for a good 5-10 years with good care and service.

Key considerations besides performance:
1. budget. less than $1k would be ideal. won't want to spend over $1500.
2. environmentally sealed
3. easy to service globally
4. higher O2 compatibility for future tec consideration?
5. some say diaphragm might be preferable than piston. verdict?
6. Din

I did my homework here on SB on picking the first regs and regulator comparisons. the posts helped a lot narrowing down our considerations below. This is by no means a new thread to many of y'all so we'd very much appreciate your opinions on this tedious topic.

- Apex MTX-RC long-hose set:
link here
retails for $1579. For sure an overkill for beginners and costs more than other options. But comes with both 2nd stages instead of an octo. A long hose to get used to future tec diving set-up might be a benefit. And Apeks lifetime warranty, so no additional costs for parts in later services is a plus. Won't be planning any extreme cold water diving soon but this is such a solid set of regs. Buy once cry once?

- SP Mk19/Mk25/Mk17 + G260/A700:
solid, easy to service, tec suitable as well. Also north of $1k in the US so not much edge here vs. the MTX-RC. One thing I'm not familiar with is how SP compares with the lifetime warranty that the Aqua Lung/Apeks i.e. if parts replacement will accumulate and ultimately cost more in the long run with SP than AL/Apeks. Haven't researched more into other SP 1st stages besides the above 3 so your opinions are welcomed.

- Aqua Lung legend elite and Apeks XL4 OCEA:
what our instructor recommended & is using / have used. environmentally sealed. around $1100.

- Deep6 Signature DIR:
full set costs north of $900. read some posts on the forum and heard many good things and I'm sure of it's performance. 2 hesitations: 1) someone on the forum mentioned there LDS is less familiar with Deep6 regs tec diving teaching and thus recommended to go with a more "common" brand. 2) outside of the US the service situation might be a different vs. the likes of AL/Apeks/SP?



Haven't done enough homework on:
- Halcyon: pretty much SP but marked up/down?
- Atomic: T3 is too pricy and titanium O2 is a limit. M1 full set is not cheap either.
- Zeagle F8: heard good things about these.
- Apeks XTX50/XTX200: both are awesome and recommended by many. but not much price advantage vs the MTXRX set so relatively not standing out



All inputs are welcome. Thanks!

So about service while traveling. Let's remember that the recommendation is to get in some dives before going on a trip if you have service done, as it isn't an uncommon occurrence for service to be done incorrectly.

So, based on that possibility, do you really want to jump into the blue off a boat with a reg just serviced locally? It is better to rent if you have a problem with your reg with one that has been used a bit since the last service.

The reality is, all the regs you mentioned are very good. You will be happy with whatever you purchase. As you are in the US, Deep 6 is a viable option whether you want to just ship it to them to service (so only 1 trip to the Post Office where hopefully you have a self-service machine at any time versus 2 trips to the dive shop during their hours). BTW, I was shipping my ScubaPro regs at the end as 3 different LDSs screwed up the service on them.

I think the criteria of servicing anywhere in the world is nonsense. If you service yourself, you need a service kit and tools with you. That's the only way I'd suggest having service done while traveling.

 

[ams511]

Whatever brand you choose, get two identical second stages, both top performance and with a knob for adjusting effort. Using a crap and cheap "octopus" thing is BAD. When you need the secondary air source, it must perform with top performances, as you are already in trouble!
Regarding brands, I would suggest Scubapro: I am big fan of this brand, as they make ever-lasting products, I am still diving my old MK5+R109 purchased in 1976, and they still make parts for servicing it.
Furthermore, a SP reg can be serviced everywhere all around the world, and you can easily service it yourself, as Internet is full of guides, manuals, videos, and sellers of original service kits.
Regarding price, I warmly suggest to purchase Scubapro regs here in Europe by a serious online seller. There are no custom duties for importing regulators in US. You save almost 50 % !!!
They are mostly made in Italy, so their price here are much smaller.
Going in more detail I would suggest the MK17 evo plus 2 identical G260, one with an hose longer than the other, for being easily donated.
I understand the good point about a first stage with the 5th LP port on top (which usually is mounted upside-down, so it becomes "on bottom"), as I dive mostly MK5 and MK10 first stages.
However Scubapro redesigned the port positions in the MK17 Evo, following recommendations from tech divers. Hence that reg is one of the few which, despite being compact and without rotating turret with fifth port, allows for perfect routing of hoses in a twin tank or sidemount setup. And removing the rotating turret means a simpler reg, with less failure points, lighter and also cheaper.
It appears that it is difficult now to purchase the MK17 Evo in the US; but if you buy online overseas, as recommended, you find it easily.
The G260 is the direct successor of the G250, the most successful reg of all times, sharing with it all the relevant parts, but adding a small screw which allows for better fine tuning.
It is simple, robust, and high performances. There are good alternatives (for example the C370, which is lighter and less expensive), but in the end I see no reason for leaving what is known to be safe and good for something more fancy but less known.
A quick search on European EBAY suggests this:

Scubapro MK17 Evo / G260 - SCHNÄPPCHEN | eBay

Scubapro MK17 Evo / G260. STUFE MK17 Evo. Stufe G260. Breiterer Mundstücksstutzen. Neuer strömungsoptimierter Kipphebel. Luftaustrittsöffnung baugleich mit A700. Kleineres Gehäuse als G250V (76vs.82mm).

www.ebay.com

You can add another second stage:

Scubapro Atemregler zweite Stufe G 260 inklusive Schlauch vom Fachhandel | eBay

"Superflow"-Schlauch mit erhöhtem Luftdurchsatz. Mit einer hochwertigen 2. Stufe lässt sich Stress reduzieren und Tauchsicherheit erhöhen. Ausgeglichener Einatemwiderstand in unterschiedlichen Tauchtiefen und bei wechselndem Flaschendruck durch pneumatisch balanciertes Ventil.

www.ebay.com

If you contact the seller, it probably can assemble a setup for you with a long hose and perhaps also an SPG, with some discount for the combined purchase.

Angelo, usually I like your posts but I respectfully disagree with you on a few points on this one.

If your cheap and crap octopus is the Aqualung Puck, I agree with you 100%. If it is a plain downstream second then I disagree. The difference between a R195 second and octo is the cover and the tuning nothing more. There is nothing wrong with a downstream second, Scubapro, Aqualung, Sherwood, Mares, and others have been using them for years successfully. The original GUE manual recommended downstream seconds as backups because they are less likely to free flow in current.

Scubapro does provide service kits for your old regs, however I don't think they still stock parts for your MK-5 or 109. Bryan at VDH used to get made various parts like the rubber covers and the exhaust tee for the old metal regs because Scubapro no longer sold them. Most other major manufacturers provide service kits for old regulators. I had no problem getting serviced my 80s vintage Sherwood Magnum or old Conshelf regulators. My point is Scubapro isn't anything special in this regard.

While regulators are significantly cheaper in Europe, it is against the dealership agreement to sell products outside the EU. The two eBay ads you listed, neither will ship to the USA. If you can give links to those that do, it would be helpful. Also regulators purchased in Europe will not have parts for life or even a warranty. When Leisure Pro used to sell grey market regulators they would warranty the regulators themselves.

When I was looking into technical training before the pandemic, every dive shop and technical diver recommended a fifth port first stage. While not strictly necessary, it does support better hose routing. No one recommended a MK-17. If he doesn't want a rotating turret, the Atomic Z2 has a fixed cap. Also why recommend a regulator that is no longer in the current SP U.S. catalog?

While the G260 is a great regulator, it is also expensive in the U.S. In one of rsingler's Regulator Geeks presentations, he shows the $125 DGX or Deep6 regulator is a perfectly satisfactory regulator. He also showed the S270 is a great value regular also.

 

[ams511]

Hi SB,

Wife and I are fairly new to diving and beginning to consider buying our first set of regs. We are vacation divers and have only dove in tropical waters (Hawaii and FL). That being said we live in the north east and will also be open to local fresh water dive sites in the future (as experiences build up).

I am personally hoping to get into tec diving in a few years. Wife is not. So this also plays a factor in forming our decisions. Ideally we want to own one set of good gears and be set for a good 5-10 years with good care and service.

Key considerations besides performance:
1. budget. less than $1k would be ideal. won't want to spend over $1500.
2. environmentally sealed
3. easy to service globally
4. higher O2 compatibility for future tec consideration?
5. some say diaphragm might be preferable than piston. verdict?
6. Din

I did my homework here on SB on picking the first regs and regulator comparisons. the posts helped a lot narrowing down our considerations below. This is by no means a new thread to many of y'all so we'd very much appreciate your opinions on this tedious topic.

- Apex MTX-RC long-hose set:
link here
retails for $1579. For sure an overkill for beginners and costs more than other options. But comes with both 2nd stages instead of an octo. A long hose to get used to future tec diving set-up might be a benefit. And Apeks lifetime warranty, so no additional costs for parts in later services is a plus. Won't be planning any extreme cold water diving soon but this is such a solid set of regs. Buy once cry once?

- SP Mk19/Mk25/Mk17 + G260/A700:
solid, easy to service, tec suitable as well. Also north of $1k in the US so not much edge here vs. the MTX-RC. One thing I'm not familiar with is how SP compares with the lifetime warranty that the Aqua Lung/Apeks i.e. if parts replacement will accumulate and ultimately cost more in the long run with SP than AL/Apeks. Haven't researched more into other SP 1st stages besides the above 3 so your opinions are welcomed.

- Aqua Lung legend elite and Apeks XL4 OCEA:
what our instructor recommended & is using / have used. environmentally sealed. around $1100.

- Deep6 Signature DIR:
full set costs north of $900. read some posts on the forum and heard many good things and I'm sure of it's performance. 2 hesitations: 1) someone on the forum mentioned there LDS is less familiar with Deep6 regs tec diving teaching and thus recommended to go with a more "common" brand. 2) outside of the US the service situation might be a different vs. the likes of AL/Apeks/SP?



Haven't done enough homework on:
- Halcyon: pretty much SP but marked up/down?
- Atomic: T3 is too pricy and titanium O2 is a limit. M1 full set is not cheap either.
- Zeagle F8: heard good things about these.
- Apeks XTX50/XTX200: both are awesome and recommended by many. but not much price advantage vs the MTXRX set so relatively not standing out



All inputs are welcome. Thanks!

Let me tell your the dirty secret of technical diving. You will buy a lot more gear. Most tech divers on here have separate singles and doubles setups, more for convenience than anything else. It is a PITA to take apart and reassemble gear.

 

[L13]

All good choices, you won't go wrong. However, since you are in the US, I would recommend you go with the Deep6's. even if your LDS isn't up to servicing them you will get probably faster, better and cheaper service just ending them to Deep6. They provide a service kit with the reg,, and any competent overseas tech can use it to do the service in an emergency.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

If it was me here’s what I’d do.
For right now buy two sets of Scubapro MK2’s which come with R195 second stages. Those are unbalanced both in the 1st and 2nd stages. Buy additional G260’s or another balanced high performace second stage and make that your primary. Those will serve you very well for any recreational warm water diving you want to do and also fresh water. Considering the superior quality of Scubapro they are a decent value too.
Then when you get into tech diving use your MK2/R195 as a deco bottle reg and buy MK25’s for your primary regs. Use the G260 that was on the MK2 on one of the MK25’s on your doubles. You’ll also need another G260 for the other MK25 on the other post.

Personally, in tech diving I wouldn’t trust any diaphragm reg with my life but that’s just me.
I’ve seen too much crap happen with sudden carastrophic HP seat failures with a few brands of diaphragms. No thanks
Piston regulators are about as dependable and rugged as it gets just based on the simplicity of design and the way the HP seat is stationary (on balanced designs) and captured.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Angelo, usually I like your posts but I respectfully disagree with you on a few points on this one.

If your cheap and crap octopus is the Aqualung Puck, I agree with you 100%. If it is a plain downstream second then I disagree. The difference between a R195 second and octo is the cover and the tuning nothing more. There is nothing wrong with a downstream second, Scubapro, Aqualung, Sherwood, Mares, and others have been using them for years successfully. The original GUE manual recommended downstream seconds as backups because they are less likely to free flow in current.

Scubapro does provide service kits for your old regs, however I don't think they still stock parts for your MK-5 or 109. Bryan at VDH used to get made various parts like the rubber covers and the exhaust tee for the old metal regs because Scubapro no longer sold them. Most other major manufacturers provide service kits for old regulators. I had no problem getting serviced my 80s vintage Sherwood Magnum or old Conshelf regulators. My point is Scubapro isn't anything special in this regard.

While regulators are significantly cheaper in Europe, it is against the dealership agreement to sell products outside the EU. The two eBay ads you listed, neither will ship to the USA. If you can give links to those that do, it would be helpful. Also regulators purchased in Europe will not have parts for life or even a warranty. When Leisure Pro used to sell grey market regulators they would warranty the regulators themselves.

When I was looking into technical training before the pandemic, every dive shop and technical diver recommended a fifth port first stage. While not strictly necessary, it does support better hose routing. No one recommended a MK-17. If he doesn't want a rotating turret, the Atomic Z2 has a fixed cap. Also why recommend a regulator that is no longer in the current SP U.S. catalog?

While the G260 is a great regulator, it is also expensive in the U.S. In one of rsingler's Regulator Geeks presentations, he shows the $125 DGX or Deep6 regulator is a perfectly satisfactory regulator. He also showed the S270 is a great value regular also.

First of all, I respect people not agreeing with me. It is nice to compare different opinions!
While I understand your concern about purchasing online from EU, I still maintain that having two identical second stages WITH KNOB AND BALANCED is the way to go.
No free flow can happen to the secondary if you turn the knob in by a couple of turns...
And being balanced it will not start free flowing if the IP pressure increases, not become hard to breath if the IP decreases.
Having two identical second stages makes it easier to service, and promotes the good practice to breath from both, alternatively, during the dive.
Each acts as a reference for the other: swapping them I immediately perceive if one of them starts behaving improperly...

Regarding the rotating turret on first stage, all my regs have it, i love it.
But if the port positions are correctly optimised, as in the MK17EVO (not in the original MK17) the rotating turret with 5th port becomes a nice gadget, but truly not necessary. Of course, having money to spend, I would go for it.
But in a limited budget, I would prefer to get a secondary air source identical to the primary, than a crap unbalanced octopus with no knob and a MK19.

 

[ams511]

If it was me here’s what I’d do.
For right now buy two sets of Scubapro MK2’s which come with R195 second stages. d also fresh water. Considering the superior quality of Scubapro they are a decent value too.

Eric, I looked at the Scuba.com site and a MK2/195 is $507. An Atomic Z2 is $570. Given the difference in performance I think the Z2 is the better deal. I think Scubapro is crazy with their pricing.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Eric, I looked at the Scuba.com site and a MK2/195 is $507. An Atomic Z2 is $570. Given the difference in performance I think the Z2 is the better deal. I think Scubapro is crazy with their pricing.

Yeah you might be right.
IDK?
In my world as long as it’s a supreme quality piston reg that’s all that matters. Atomic is certainly supreme quality.

 

[TrimixToo]

Whatever brand you choose, get two identical second stages, both top performance and with a knob for adjusting effort. Using a crap and cheap "octopus" thing is BAD. When you need the secondary air source, it must perform with top performances, as you are already in trouble!
Regarding brands, I would suggest Scubapro: I am big fan of this brand, as they make ever-lasting products, I am still diving my old MK5+R109 purchased in 1976, and they still make parts for servicing it. <snip>

We'll have to agree to disagree on the adjusting knob. I don't like them, don't use them, and don't miss them. But the Conshelf reg I bought new in 1972 is still going strong as my son's pony reg and last I checked I could still get kits for it.