Fundies kicked my a$$

[Tortuga68]

Eh, someone could come up with a course/philosophy & call it "You're all idiots and I'm much better than you in every way oh and I banged your wife last night" and it still wouldn't bother me

Seriously, who cares

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

There's that flaming again. I guess that means I can flame back?

What I find ignorant is taking an expensive class if you have no use for it. Obviously, from your other post below, you didn't take anything from the class. These are the GUE Fundamentals:

Of particular interest is the promotion of solid fundamental skills for all divers (recreational and technical) as well as their adherence to a common diving standard. This general standard requires the following:
•Divers use the same equipment configuration; this enhances safety and efficiency.
•Divers use the same well-defined set of breathing gases, including Nitrox, Helium and Oxygen; standard mixes eliminate complexity and greatly enhance safety.
•Divers use a team approach during all dives, facilitating fun and safety.
•Divers must have a solid grasp of fundamental diving skills, including refined buoyancy, trim and teamwork; these skills must be developed in concert with the type of dive pursued. Difficult dives require very high levels of skill development.

Why take a class if you're just going to ignore its precepts? As a holistic system, you can't pick and choose. It's all or nothing. If you're not Doing it Right, you're doing it wrong. That's why I don't particularly care for GUE/DIR. I don't do it their way, but I'm still doing it right my way in my opinion and that's good enough for me.

Well ... what you just wrote isn't a flame ... it's an example of what I'm referring to ... thank you.

Some points of clarification ...

• I use what I learned in Fundamentals on every dive I've done since taking the class ... that was some 1800 dives ago. I consider the money and effort I put into that class one of the best investments I've ever made.
• I have never claimed to "be" DIR ... labels don't interest me ... skills and knowledge do.
• I'm a perfect example of why your stereotypes don't work. I took GUE classes, got what I wanted from those classes, and found ways to apply it to the type of diving I want to do. I have subsequently also taken classes with several other agencies. So where's this "cult" you keep referring to?

The hallmark of a willfully ignorant person is someone who refuses to recognize the contradictions inherent in their beliefs. I'm not trying to flame you ... I frankly don't care what you think. And if it makes you feel better about yourself, well ... everybody needs to feel good about themselves.

I will, however, point out that when it comes to DIR, you don't know what you're talking about. The sum total of your "knowledge" is what you've learned by participating in internet conversations and helping to perpetuate myths created by people who feel threatened by DIR's existence.

But then, anyone who's ever actually made an effort to learn a little bit about DIR already sees that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

Obviously, from your other post below, you didn't take anything from the class.

I find it fascinating that you can read Bob's post and conclude that.

For me, although I got introduced to kicks and buoyancy and SMB shoots and the like in Fundies, the huge light bulb was TEAM. The emphasis, over and over again, was working together, staying together, solving problems together, and eventually, loving the dive together. Bob has changed his equipment configuration, which DOES violate the principle of standardized equipment (although his hose setup is not entirely different, and he'll still donate the long hose if he needs to do that). But what he hasn't changed is his dive planning, pre-dive routine, standard gases, communications, situational awareness, or in-water skill. He is not a DIR diver (or a GUE diver) but he is a far BETTER diver for having adopted and used all these skills he found in Fundamentals, through the years he dove a standard Hog rig, and now in his sidemount setup.

I think the best argument against the "cult" idea is that people DO drift away from a fully "DIR" dive setup, as they feel the need or desire to do so. I know former WKPP members who dive rebreathers. I know a member of a T2C2 team (that includes a GUE instructor) who has recently started doing some sidemount diving. Nobody is so indoctrinated that they can't envision trying something new -- or so inflexible that they can't go back to diving a "normal" DIR setup if they want to.

(Says Lynne, who is going to buy a sidemount setup as soon as she figures out which one she wants, and still intends to remain the Borg Queen.)

 

[Peter Guy]

I generally stay out of these stupid "discussions" (and yes, that is in quotes since this is NOT a discussion in any real sense of the word since that requires knowledge of the subject on all sides) but I can't not resist.

The protagonist, Mossman, wrote

What I find ignorant is taking an expensive class if you have no use for it. Obviously, from your other post below, you didn't take anything from the class. These are the GUE Fundamentals:

Of particular interest is the promotion of solid fundamental skills for all divers (recreational and technical) as well as their adherence to a common diving standard. This general standard requires the following:
•Divers use the same equipment configuration; this enhances safety and efficiency.
•Divers use the same well-defined set of breathing gases, including Nitrox, Helium and Oxygen; standard mixes eliminate complexity and greatly enhance safety.
•Divers use a team approach during all dives, facilitating fun and safety.
•Divers must have a solid grasp of fundamental diving skills, including refined buoyancy, trim and teamwork; these skills must be developed in concert with the type of dive pursued. Difficult dives require very high levels of skill development.

I took, and passed, Fundies after refusing to do so for some time. Why did I finally take it? Because I found out I wasn't as good of a diver as I thought I was -- I found my panic button on a dive that, fortunately, was found safely.

As a result of the training I received from my GUE instructor, scuba teacher and like trained buddies, I almost always comply with at least 3 out of the 4 ideals listed by Mossman. Guess what -- so do my buddies -- including NWGrateful Diver with whom I had the privilege of critiquing his SM setup on Sunday. While I most often dive with people who are diving OC and dry (and no, we don't dive the exact same gear but that is NOT relevant nor a part of the GUE statement), diving with someone in SM just means I need to think a little bit and make sure I understand the protocols.

The other three items are not effected nor were they.

Mossman -- I know very few divers, actually, I don't know any divers, who haven't taken Fundies but who would receive no benefit from taking it. As my sig line states, teaching is a learning experience and I know that EVERY Open Water Class I teach, teaches me something of value regarding diving.

I actually feel sorry for you that you don't understand that even YOU should be able to learn something of significant value by taking a class from a good teacher -- and THAT is where the value of a GUE class lies. It isn't really in the class -- it really IS all about the teacher -- and GUE, in my experience and opinion, has the best teacher training, control and evaluation out there. Mossman -- I'm sorry that you truly don't know what you don't know -- perhaps if you opened your mind you might begin to learn something of value.

 

[mdb]

This continuing discussion comes up frequently. I do not think it is about cults or doing it right or wrong. I believe it is more about how you want to dive. For me the "team" concept is not what I want to do. I just want to kit up for the dive at hand and dive with minimal gear. I really don't want to see other divers. I like solo. Back on the boat or shore, just fine, lets have lunch or dinner and talk about what we saw and experienced. I do think any class you take is very worthwhile. I have been very fortunate to have many good dive instructors over the years. I took something from every class. I do not think it is any different with taking a GUE/UTD class. How can your lose?

 

[endurodog]

FWIW I have heard of fundies and training and before this thread have not really considered it but with what the knowledgeable people have posted here I am more interested in a class now. Thanks to those that have put up with the bs and posted some good info.

 

[Rainer]

That's great!

There's a GUE instructor, Rob Calkins, in Colorado (GUE Instructor résumé | Global Underwater Explorers). You should definitely drop him a line and see about a Fundies class.

FWIW I have heard of fundies and training and before this thread have not really considered it but with what the knowledgeable people have posted here I am more interested in a class now. Thanks to those that have put up with the bs and posted some good info.

 

[shoredivr]

Eh, someone could come up with a course/philosophy & call it "You're all idiots and I'm much better than you in every way oh and I banged your wife last night" and it still wouldn't bother me

Seriously, who cares

The way I see it, Mossman is secretly on the payroll of GUE, using reverse psychology to get those who have benefitted from GUE Fundamentals training give us all the good points of the course. Excellent work.

*edit* congratulations Crush on your pass.

 

[Mossman]

As a result of the training I received from my GUE instructor, scuba teacher and like trained buddies, I almost always comply with at least 3 out of the 4 ideals listed by Mossman. Guess what -- so do my buddies -- including NWGrateful Diver with whom I had the privilege of critiquing his SM setup on Sunday. While I most often dive with people who are diving OC and dry (and no, we don't dive the exact same gear but that is NOT relevant nor a part of the GUE statement), diving with someone in SM just means I need to think a little bit and make sure I understand the protocols.

The other three items are not effected nor were they.

By disregarding #1, you are certainly affecting the team. #3 and #4 are therefore affected. The whole of the holistic is thrown out of balance. Throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

By disregarding #1, you are certainly affecting the team. #3 and #4 are therefore affected. The whole of the holistic is thrown out of balance. Throw out the baby with the bathwater.

... that would only be the case if the divers involved were the unthinking automatons you claim them to be. There's that willful ignorance again.

A thinking diver is capable of evaluating the needs of the dive and determining if all team members are equipped appropriately to handle those needs.

It isn't rocket surgery ... haven't you ever dived with someone who uses a different reg configuration or dive computer than you do? How hard is it, really?

FWIW - #3 and #4 do not refer to equipment at all ... #3 refers to a mental approach to dive planning, preparation and execution that has at its root the concept of "our" dive rather than "my" dive ... and #4 refers to the basic diving skills of trim, buoyancy, and buddy awareness. FWIW - those are nothing more than logical extensions of the skills that every single one of us should have been introduced to in our basic OW class ... regardless of which agency we took it from.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)