GUE Training Question

[DiverDownDave]

Hello DIR Divers
I have been researching GUE diving and it appears that, due to their high standards, many people do not pass on their first attempt. As best I can tell, a class is approx. $500 - $600 plus expenses. So my question is if a 'candidate' does not pass on the first attempt, do they have to pay the $500-6000 again or does GUE allow the instructor to work with them until they meet the standards?

 

[danvolker]

Hello DIR Divers
I have been researching GUE diving and it appears that, due to their high standards, many people do not pass on their first attempt. As best I can tell, a class is approx. $500 - $600 plus expenses. So my question is if a 'candidate' does not pass on the first attempt, do they have to pay the $500-6000 again or does GUE allow the instructor to work with them until they meet the standards?

You get a huge number of additional free tries.....where you can run through other classes.
However, and hopefully this DOES NOT apply to you.....in Diving, as with Snow Skiiing...there is a percentage of new students that should be dubbed as " Never-Evers"....people lacking the peripheral awareness, the coordination, and the mental/emotional "wiring" to go beyond the "bunny slope" ( in diving this would be the swimming pool).

 

[PfcAJ]

Depends on the situation.

If you fail (a rare situation), you're out. A fail pretty much means that the instructor feels that you will not be able to meet the minimum standard within 6months time. Uncommon.

A provisional means you need a little work, but have the ability to meet the standard within 6months. You can go home, practice what your learned, polish it up, then get with an instructor for an evaluation dive. Some charge a day's of diving for this, some don't, some allow you to do the check out with another instructor, some don't. Ask for specifics as this is somewhat common.

Rec pass = you performed to the recreational standards. Either you did it in a rec config or a non-complete tech config (missing can light, backup lights, somethin'), or you weren't quite there for a tech pass. That's cool, because you passed! You can come back at any time (6months or more, doesn't matter) and get re-evaluated for a tech pass. Same thing applies with other instructors and daily fees. Gotta ask the instructor. This seems to be most common.

Tech pass = fully qualified to move into the tech/cave curriculum following the min number of dives between classes. Seems roughly as common as a provisional.

I disagree with Dan about "never-evers". Your personal attitude can make up for a lot of natural ability.

In any case, I suggest going into the class with the intent to learn, not pass. If you focus on learning, you'll do just fine.

 

[scubamarketing]

I guess I was a special case since I don’t actually live anywhere near my GUE instructor and schedules didn’t line up, but he canceled the course because he was uncomfortable with three of us in conditions I frequently take 8-10 open water students in. He wasn’t able to add me to his next couple of courses, then it became a scheduling impossibility (I have a very small window of the year when life is slow enough for me to take courses), so I couldn’t get back in. So no certification, no retries, but definitely out the money. That combined with seeing really poor skills from GUE students during my TDI cave course (plus tons of them smoking despite that supposedly being against the rules) has me going elsewhere for my training. YMMV.

 

[TSandM]

As AJ said, policies differ, but I have NEVER heard of an instructor taking money for a class HE canceled and refusing to refund it, and I believe GUE would be perturbed to hear of that.

My original GUE instructor, from whom I took Fundies, did quite a few dives and reevaluations with me and my buddy, over the course of our Fundamentals and Rec Triox classes. He did not charge for them, although I think he should have. Other instructors do charge, which I honestly think is reasonable.

One of the frustrating things about GUE being such a small organization is that not everyone has a local instructor. If you have to fly someone in -- or fly somewhere else yourself -- you are under tremendous pressure to pass the first time around. This is sad, because a class ought to be a CLASS, and not an evaluation exercise, and it leads to the endless practice and mentoring that people go through, where they can learn bad habits that are very hard to get rid of later on.

But AJ has it right -- if you go into a class with an open mind and an intention to learn, you will not lose anything, even if you can't come up with a clear pass. Only if you intend to continue with technical training with GUE do you NEED to pass the class and get the card.

BTW, I provisionaled Cave 2, and was never able to complete the requirements for converting it to a pass. Living in Seattle presents some significant logistical barriers for getting to Florida caves very often. It is very annoying to see that kind of money "lost", but I did get all the instruction I paid for, and I could always have brought my A game and passed.

 

[danvolker]

The most important thing for you to get out of Fundies, is NOT the "passing" grade....the grade --passing-- is almost irrellevant in the world of recreational divers that could benefit massively from Fundies....

What you get is a huge skill set you did not have before, that will forever transform your diving. You should try to pass..but even those that don't end up as much better divers--and should realize they were not doing the class for a MERRIT Badge

 

[scubamarketing]

As AJ said, policies differ, but I have NEVER heard of an instructor taking money for a class HE canceled and refusing to refund it, and I believe GUE would be perturbed to hear of that.

Unfortunately, it is what happened. I didn't press it because, as I mentioned before, I have a very odd training availability schedule. When I was unable to reschedule within a year, I was done.

One of the frustrating things about GUE being such a small organization is that not everyone has a local instructor. If you have to fly someone in -- or fly somewhere else yourself -- you are under tremendous pressure to pass the first time around. This is sad, because a class ought to be a CLASS, and not an evaluation exercise, and it leads to the endless practice and mentoring that people go through, where they can learn bad habits that are very hard to get rid of later on.

The other big frustration for me, is (to the best of my knowledge) there's no way of testing out. I don't need all of Fundies again, but I'd be interested in at least looking at Cave II (Cave I is a repeat of everything I learned from my TDI Full Cave instructor, so I'd love the option to test out there too) and tech courses. But there's no way I'm going to pay again for Fundies. And realistically, the things I learned in Fundies that I didn't already know from 1000+ instructing dives I learned in my first day of TDI Intro to Tech Diving.

 

[danvolker]

And realistically, the things I learned in Fundies that I didn't already know from 1000+ instructing dives I learned in my first day of TDI Intro to Tech Diving.

Which flies in the face of what we read from virtually every Fundies graduate...and this would be that Fundies was the most significant diving class they ever took.
And having seen many TDI tech divers in action, there is no cause to suggest TDI has any special claim to a freak population of divers -- that arrived with all the skills which Fundies develops in a week of concentrated diving.
That is not a slam on TDI in any stretch..just saying that the one day comment you made was pretty much a joke.

 

[PfcAJ]

I know of 2 people that have tested out of level 1 classes, but both had Fundamentals and a lot of experience with other GUE divers diving both deep and in caves (sometimes deep caves).

Extremely few and far between.

 

[scubamarketing]

Which flies in the face of what we read from virtually every Fundies graduate...and this would be that Fundies was the most significant diving class they ever took.

I don't really care if it "flies in the face of what we read from virtually every Fundies graduate", that was my experience. It was most definitely not the most significant diving class I ever took aside from the price (aside from my IDC).

And having seen many TDI tech divers in action, there is no cause to suggest TDI has any special claim to a freak population of divers -- that arrived with all the skills which Fundies develops in a week of concentrated diving.

This sentence isn't entirely clear, so I'll do my best to interpret it. I don't claim all TDI tech divers are awesome, I've seen plenty who most definitely are not. I didn't pick TDI for any specific reason other than I've gotten along with my instructors and feel they teach tech/cave in a similar way to how I teach OW through AI. That includes lots of simulated emergencies and teaching for true mastery. And my Fundies wasn't a week of diving, it was 3 days that were cut short.

That is not a slam on TDI in any stretch..just saying that the one day comment you made was pretty much a joke.

Again, not in my case. I didn't learn trim or finning in Fundies, I already had that down from almost 15 years of being an instructor and diving a variety of locations with a variety of gear. Gas management takes all of 5 minutes to learn. The deco concepts and pre-dive checklist took another hour maybe. Getting comfortable in DIR gear took one dive. Therefore, for me, what I was saying was that learning how to fit a harness, do S-drills, and a complete tech-oriented pre-dive checklist, along with doing the one dive to get comfortable with the gear, was equivalent to the one day of TDI Intro to Tech. For me.

I know of 2 people that have tested out of level 1 classes, but both had Fundamentals and a lot of experience with other GUE divers diving both deep and in caves (sometimes deep caves).

Extremely few and far between.

Unfortunately, I'm not willing to spend $650-900 to take Fundies again when I won't learn anything new. So GUE is not an option going forward for me, which I find unfortunate because I do like their curriculum for several courses.