GUE Training Question

[TSandM]

scubamarketing, I'm sorry your Fundies experience wasn't what you wanted, and I don't want to sound like the "GUE groupies" who are unable or unwilling to consider that those classes might ever not be good. I have actually watched the tail end of an awful Fundies class, and I have taken a GUE class that didn't go well and that I wish I had never done. So no organization is perfect, and no class will be all things to all divers.

I do think, however, that it is a bit questionable to dismiss a class that you didn't actually TAKE. Your opinion might have been quite different had you been able to complete the full schedule of diving that the class involves, in conditions where the instructor could actually see the students and the students could see one another.

At any rate, you certainly have every right to feel dissatisfied and to conclude you want nothing more to do with the organization. But I wish you wouldn't come on a thread like this and tell people who are interested in the class that you don't think it's worth much, when you didn't actually take it.

 

[eelnoraa]

I believe if you keep an open mind, drop any ego if you have any, set the goal to "learn" instead of "pass", you are not likely to receive a "fail". You may get a "provisional", allowing you to redo your check out and change "provisional" to a "pass". I believe you get at least one retry, but the actual number of retries really is between you and your instructor. And if you have the correct altitude, even you don't pass, you won't regret.

As for cost, it is actually not that much consider the amount of time you get from the instructor. I would say fundie is a lot better deal than any of the Padi class, maybe except Rescue.

Have the above said, I think it is definitely possible have bad instructors in GUE just like other agency. I haven't experienced it myself since all around my area have nothing but great. But I have heard very bad stories recently from a visit GUE diver from out of state

 

[scubamarketing]

If I had a dollar for every time I wished I could suppress feedback, my days as an AT&T manager would have made me a very rich man

I didn't take fundies? Really? So I should have told the college I used to teach SCUBA for to shove their mandatory course evaluations in week 9 because despite 27 hours of academic and 18 hours in the pool, without the 4 hours of open water dives my students haven't actually taken the course? Or the course evaluations I created and handed out at the end of the IDC's I staffed were worthless because my IDC candidates hadn't finished the IE? You really think that since I did all of the academic and all of the pool and had one open water dive left due to the instructor choosing not to dive in conditions normal for the area, I haven't taken Fundies?

I don't fully understand how it works out that GUE fans can say they've heard of and even seen bad classes, but when a student from one of those classes shares their experience, they're attacked. To think being dismissively rude is going to change my meh rating to a positive one is laughable.

OP asked about retaking the course to completion, I shared my experience specific to that question, I was asked for more details, I shared. Is GUE Fundies for everybody? Based on my experience, it would be great for a ton of divers, but no, it is not for everyone and the course I took definitely did not have the value I expected out of it.

Perhaps this is because everyone hypes it up so much instead of being realistic about it like I'm trying to be. I recently saw a sign that read "Portland's Best Burger" so I tried it, it wasn't the best. Had the sign said "We have a really good burger" I wouldn't have taken the effort to write a review saying it wasn't Portland's best. Or maybe it's because I managed an AT&T store during one of AT&T's worst periods so I over-emphasize the concept of managing expectations. Regardless, a blanket "GUE Fundies will be the best dive course you ever take" chanted at every diver you meet is bound to get a few people like myself who end up disagreeing. Take the feedback and learn from it or don't.

OP, whatever you decide, best of luck to you. I hope you learn plenty and have a great course and continue on to be a smart, safe diver.

Everyone else, I wish I could be part of your team, but I'm unwilling to spend another $900 to retake a class I didn't find the value in at $650.

Happy diving!

 

[Ste Wart]

I think everybody needs to approach Fundies from their own direction.

I took the course purely because I wanted to take GUE Cave courses. I already had full trimix, over 2000+ dives and have worked as an instructor for 7 years. Did I learn anything? Yes, did I learn a huge amount? No, because of my background. But it did refine a few things for me and open me up to the GUE style of team diving. It wasn't an epiphany, but it was a necessary step to reach my goal of taking C1 (just booked btw).

Fundies isn't about redefining your initial training it is about pointing you in the right direction to dive in a GUE-style. It's not an insult to previous training, no more than deco-diving is to your OW course. It is simply a new skill set.

 

[danvolker]

If I had a dollar for every time I wished I could suppress feedback, my days as an AT&T manager would have made me a very rich man

I didn't take fundies? Really? So I should have told the college I used to teach SCUBA for to shove their mandatory course evaluations in week 9 because despite 27 hours of academic and 18 hours in the pool, without the 4 hours of open water dives my students haven't actually taken the course? Or the course evaluations I created and handed out at the end of the IDC's I staffed were worthless because my IDC candidates hadn't finished the IE? You really think that since I did all of the academic and all of the pool and had one open water dive left due to the instructor choosing not to dive in conditions normal for the area, I haven't taken Fundies?

I don't fully understand how it works out that GUE fans can say they've heard of and even seen bad classes, but when a student from one of those classes shares their experience, they're attacked. To think being dismissively rude is going to change my meh rating to a positive one is laughable.

OP asked about retaking the course to completion, I shared my experience specific to that question, I was asked for more details, I shared. Is GUE Fundies for everybody? Based on my experience, it would be great for a ton of divers, but no, it is not for everyone and the course I took definitely did not have the value I expected out of it.

Perhaps this is because everyone hypes it up so much instead of being realistic about it like I'm trying to be. I recently saw a sign that read "Portland's Best Burger" so I tried it, it wasn't the best. Had the sign said "We have a really good burger" I wouldn't have taken the effort to write a review saying it wasn't Portland's best. Or maybe it's because I managed an AT&T store during one of AT&T's worst periods so I over-emphasize the concept of managing expectations. Regardless, a blanket "GUE Fundies will be the best dive course you ever take" chanted at every diver you meet is bound to get a few people like myself who end up disagreeing. Take the feedback and learn from it or don't.

OP, whatever you decide, best of luck to you. I hope you learn plenty and have a great course and continue on to be a smart, safe diver.

Everyone else, I wish I could be part of your team, but I'm unwilling to spend another $900 to retake a class I didn't find the value in at $650.

Happy diving!

One reason I would aggressively defend Fundies, against the destructive overview you have given it, is that I believe the Fundies course is an opportunity for divers ---- UNLIKE any other class from any other training agency---and it is something that 99% of divers ( or more), will find radically harder, and with more content and learning, than any other dive course. For a diver just hearing about Fundies for the first time, then hearing your overview ( if unchecked by responses), they might erroniously conclude that Fundies is "just another class", and not significantly different than what any other agency has to offer.....For most divers, GUE's Fundies course will make them a better diver, and help make diving more fun, with bigger but safer challenges made easy for them, for the rest of their lives.

And GUE Fundies, really IS very different, than what any other agency has so far developed.

I don't know that I would suggest GUE for all people for tech---GUE takes it to an extreme far beyond the needs of many tech dive desires( of what a diver wants out of tech diving), which could mean a huge time and cost for training in tech that agencies like TDI or IANTD could do an adequate job of, in a much smaller time period, for much less money. The differences, if you are just diving a simple wreck --mostly on the outside of it, at 250 feet deep, no real currents, no big challenges for a tech dive ( i.e.., most tech dive destinations advertised-- are pretty easy) --the differences may not be worth it for many..many may want to dive sooner, rather than later, and may already be close to having the skills needed. But we are not talking about GUE for tech or cave in this thread--we are talking about the value of Fundies, which I think transcends all other classes and agencies.

The vast majority of divers that could benefit from Fundies, will not share YOUR background of tech and instruction, and your problems in scheduling for classes....You have a very specific issue--yet the overview made ME feel you wanted MOST divers to hear you saying that Fundies was / is a waste of time....that is what your post leaves....that is why I responded against your post...maybe others felt the same way I did--I'm sure they will say

 

[Pullmyfinger]

You took the entire course, except for the last dive!
You were lacking only one dive, and had a year to bounce your schedule against the Instructors, to do that one dive.

Hell, I would have found a way to make that happen, and not have to worry about it.

You didn't learn much from it....but you are probably much more awesome than the average guy.
You are more awesome than me. I had already take TDI AN/DP prior to Fundamentals, and I learned a lot.

But I wanted to learn.

**You actually ate a hamburger, and then bothered to write a review that it wasn't actually "Portland's Best"?
Seriously?
You are "That Guy" aren't you?

---------- Post added January 8th, 2014 at 08:26 AM ----------

but he canceled the course because he was uncomfortable with three of us in conditions I frequently take 8-10 open water students in.

This is really the crux of it for you, isn't it? Marinate on that statement of yours for a few minutes.
I'm sure you look much different with 10 of your OW students, than he does with 3 of his.

Your posts really sound like you want(ed) acknowledgement for how awesome you are and you didn't get it.

Perhaps your GUE Instructor was the worst Instructor God ever breathed breath into...I don't know. It's also likely, that despite your lofty opinion of your skills as an Instructor....you were a terrible student.

I can just imagine you are one of those guys that was probably letting your Instructor know throughout the course just how good of an Instructor your were.

Did you tell the instructor....."What do you mean we're not diving?!? I take MY students out in this all the time; all 10 of 'em."........based on how you come across in your posts.....I'll bet you did.............Probably more than once.

I don't know that either; but your chest thumping posts certainly seem to read like that.

Perhaps there was a "reason" your instructor was suddenly VERY busy that following year.

BTW. Where can I find those hamburgers? I'm starting to think they might actually be pretty good.

 

[PfcAJ]

Mystery gue instructor.

 

[alewar]

I'm sure you can arrange to make that last dive happen without having to pay for the entire course again. Perhaps if you politely ask the right people?

 

[scubamarketing]

One reason I would aggressively defend Fundies, against the destructive overview you have given it...
yet the overview made ME feel you wanted MOST divers to hear you saying that Fundies was / is a waste of time....that is what your post leaves....that is why I responded against your post...maybe others felt the same way I did--I'm sure they will say

Having worked as, worked with, or trained customer service roles since I was 15, there's no need to aggressively defend against feedback. We get feedback all the time, I always read it and at least respond with "Thank you for your feedback". Some of it gets passed on to people who can change/fix things. Some feedback is people just looking to be heard. But the bottom line is that all people working in some form of customer service, which you are if you're a GUE instructor, employee, or promoter, should take advice in the manner in which it was given instead of taking it personally. I have thick skin, but I don't know if I have thick enough skin to take all the feedback we get personally. Then again, I know it's not personal and I take it graciously even if I have no intent on changing anything from said feedback.

I'm sorry you misinterpreted my fairly clear statements and thought I was saying that Fundies was/is a waste of time. I've been saying from the get go is that it may not be for everyone. A very honest answer to anyone considering taking the course. It's not for my girlfriend because she has no interest in this style of diving and her skills aren't ready for it. That's honest. Yes, she'd learn a metric ton from it, but she wouldn't like the course and she wouldn't feel she got value from it because it's not relevant to her interests as a diver. I know her very well and am able to give that honest assessment. It's not saying GUE Fundies is a waste of time, it's just saying it would be for her at this point.

Don't take feedback personally, especially when it's not even close to being personal. From someone with far too much experience with this, the best thing about immediately taking feedback and making the customer feel heard is they tend to not continue talking about their problem.

You took the entire course, except for the last dive!
You were lacking only one dive, and had a year to bounce your schedule against the Instructors, to do that one dive.

Hell, I would have found a way to make that happen, and not have to worry about it.

You're officially hired to manage my schedule Trust me on this one, life/work has been ungodly hectic, I moved, I was dealing with a slow cancer death in the family, he only offers a handful of these a year, the ones for the year I scheduled were all booked, and I wasn't available for future classes until a year had passed.

You didn't learn much from it....but you are probably much more awesome than the average guy.
You are more awesome than me. I had already take TDI AN/DP prior to Fundamentals, and I learned a lot.

But I wanted to learn.

I too wanted to learn, and I did. Everyone kept saying "EVERYONE will find this the most awesome class ever". I didn't. I did learn, but not commensurate with the value I expected to receive based on what everyone says about the course. Set realistic expectations.

**You actually ate a hamburger, and then bothered to write a review that it wasn't actually "Portland's Best"?
Seriously?
You are "That Guy" aren't you?

Nope, just an example. I did write a tip on my Foursquare check in letting people know where a better burger could be had within walking distance, but I don't tend to do reviews.

This is really the crux of it for you, isn't it? Marinate on that statement of yours for a few minutes.
I'm sure you look much different with 10 of your OW students, than he does with 3 of his.

Oh yeah, we look incredibly different. I'm still in my horizontal trim doing all of the various propulsion techniques, but I'm wearing a jacket BCD without a long hose (it's what my LDS teaches for OW divers) and they are most definitely having a wonderful time getting used to the thick wetsuits in cold water. But despite the concept TSandM made up about none of us being able to see each other, conditions were typical for that time in that area. If he can't teach in those conditions, the course shouldn't be offered at that time. That's feedback. Take it and consider it or don't, but don't take it personally.

Your posts really sound like you want(ed) acknowledgement for how awesome you are and you didn't get it.

Again with you guys trying to figure me out as a person. Nice attempt, but no. All I want to know is if I perform the skills at a mastery level, I don't care about a gold star next to my name.

Perhaps your GUE Instructor was the worst Instructor God ever breathed breath into...I don't know. It's also likely, that despite your lofty opinion of your skills as an Instructor....you were a terrible student.

I can just imagine you are one of those guys that was probably letting your Instructor know throughout the course just how good of an Instructor your were.

Did you tell the instructor....."What do you mean we're not diving?!? I take MY students out in this all the time; all 10 of 'em."........based on how you come across in your posts.....I'll bet you did.............Probably more than once.

I don't know that either; but your chest thumping posts certainly seem to read like that.

Perhaps there was a "reason" your instructor was suddenly VERY busy that following year.

BTW. Where can I find those hamburgers? I'm starting to think they might actually be pretty good.

I never said my instructor was a bad instructor. I love the ad hominem attacks that are completely off base though, nice. During the course, I didn't bring up that I was an instructor because I knew being a PADI instructor is completely irrelevant in a GUE Fundies course. Just like it was irrelevant when I took my cave course. He knew I was an instructor from our pre-course emails since one of my main goals was to be a better instructor after taking Fundies. I didn't complain about the cancelled dives because I am a firm believer in being able to abort a dive at any time for any reason with no questions asked.

As for my favorite burger in Portland, I recommend Wildwood on NW 21st. They actually cook it to order (I'm a medium rare guy) and they use a delicious white cheddar and caramelized onions on it.

Mystery gue instructor.

I'm not going to name him because I don't have an issue with him or Fundies, I have an issue with people telling everyone who asks that it's the end-all-be-all class that it may or may not be depending on the specific diver and their specific goals.

I'm sure you can arrange to make that last dive happen without having to pay for the entire course again. Perhaps if you politely ask the right people?

I asked my instructor either for an extension or a transfer of what I'd done to the GUE instructor closer to where I had moved, I never got a reply.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Oh yeah, we look incredibly different. I'm still in my horizontal trim doing all of the various propulsion techniques, but I'm wearing a jacket BCD without a long hose (it's what my LDS teaches for OW divers) and they are most definitely having a wonderful time getting used to the thick wetsuits in cold water. But despite the concept TSandM made up about none of us being able to see each other, conditions were typical for that time in that area. If he can't teach in those conditions, the course shouldn't be offered at that time. That's feedback. Take it and consider it or don't, but don't take it personally.

I was referring to how you, along with 10 students looked vs how he, along with 3 GUE Fundamentals students would look. Not ONLY you.....which is why I said "along with" your students.

The standards required for a GUE Fundamentals class (It IS a class) would require better visibility in order to be more effective for teaching to that higher standard.

Why do you "imagine" everything is an "attack", and that everyone is taking things personally?? I'm not attacking you, nor am I taking anything you say about your class experience personally. My view is based on what you have written.

You seem to have a odd view of an opposing view in this thread. If anyone disagrees with you....you play the "attacking me" card, followed by your apparent favorite, the "you are taking it personally" card. I've given my opinion, base on what I read from your posts no more than that.

You are saying that you didn't learn much from your class. I'm not disagreeing with you on that. I have no doubt that you didn't learn much at all in your class.

You also say that it isn't for everybody. You are definitely preaching to the choir....we already know it isn't for everybody.

I get the impression that you take any differing opinion as an "attack" on you. At least in this thread.

Anyway...this thread is becoming a little too dramatic for me.

Is it worth $900, by the time you consider all expenses? Is was to me, but I had goals, and I wanted to improve.

Do I recommend it to everyone? No...I do not.

******** I would have no possible way of knowing why your Instructor did not reply to your email.

---------- Post added January 8th, 2014 at 10:33 AM ----------

I have an issue with people telling everyone who asks that it's the end-all-be-all class that it may or may not be depending on the specific diver and their specific goals.

You are achieving your goal.
Keep spreading the word.