Guided Dives your Thoughts ? and Bad Situations

[ermaclob]

So ive been lurking around reading old threads and Ive been thinking about guided dives as well as how sometimes they can lead up to "trust me dive." I've never been guided by a DM for any trip or dive I've ever done (courses not included). Me and my friends simply plan and do everything we want for our selves. Though it seems that alot of people do get a guide when they go on vacation. Ive read that in some places the guides can be a really bad thing, sometimes suggesting on doing some very unwise things. Id like to hear about some of your experiences with these people. I hear that sometimes its not optional to dive without a guide and that seems some what troublesome to me. When ever i think of having a DM guide a dive i think a situation where the divers have very little say in what is going to happen, though most likely a misconception of mine. Have any of you guys ever had to deal with some one trying to push a bad plan? How do you sort that out? I feel that the guide wanting to do bad things could simply agree to plan the dive as you suggest but then manipulate things underwater to do what he wants.

I understand what i suggest is a pretty bad circumstance and that lot of guided dives dont go like that at all. Most probably go really smooth.

i also wanted to see your opinions on the lesser effects having a guide can have. ive come across a few threads in the past where people feel uneasy diving with out a DM, and cant seem to get them selfs to plan and execute a dive without the help of one. in a worse case that ive seen first hand is that some people can become completely reliant on the help of others to do anything at all, even set up dive equipment.


So esentially to sum up my post. What do you think about guided dives? Do they promote bad habits if done to frequently? Have you ever had a guide suggest a bad plan/ try to push it on you and other divers. How did you deal with it. any other opinions good or bad you have?

(mine seem quite negative after rereading the post, but there is no dought there are good aspects of having a guide)

 

[TSandM]

I've never had an experience where a guide suggested a dive I thought was unwise. I've had guides lead dives where I thought poor decisions were made. We had a guide in Indonesia lead the group into a strong current for almost ten minutes, chasing a single turtle; we blew through our gas and had a much shorter dive than we would have liked as a result.

I've had a guide take off like a scalded cat, despite the fact that he knew three out of his five clients were photographers. We eventually ignored him.

I think the biggest risk of guided dives is complacency -- leaving responsibility for everything but checking one's depth gauge and computer to the guide. One should always ask, "If the guide suddenly evaporated, could I deal with that?" If the answer is no, pay more attention to the dive briefing; do your own navigation, and acquire the skills to shoot a bag or return to the anchor line.

 

[victor]

Local Knowledge diving a location that you have never been to before. A guide is very useful, where to enter, exit, places to go to, if you are looking for x, y, or z.

You are responsible for your own safety and your buddies, you dont have to dive a bad plan and you can thumb a dive at any time.
Mostly it is inexperienced divers who don't have the confidence to say NO. A couple of newly qualified Open water divers in Indonesia were taken to below 40 metres (130 ft), they were ok but one was buddy breathing for most of the ascent. With hindsight they both new they should have said NO.

Some divers are a danger to the environment and themselves, then need a guide to, keep them off the reef, keep them above 150 ft, stop them running out of air, stop them getting lost, etc.

Yes some guides are bad, and some are very very good.
As a photographer their knowledge of the reef and ability to spot critters can be the greatest help.
Others who move to fast, call the dive at 35 mins, lead into current, well enough said.

The main thing is to enjoy every dive and stay safe.

 

[Storker]

I've never had an experience where a guide suggested a dive I thought was unwise.

I have. Cave, entrance at ~40m, one torch per diver, no guideline. I declined. The tourists who did the dive went into deco. Some of them noticed (and weren't particularly impressed at the op's safety standards), some didn't and were quite happy with the dive, including the 10-minute "let's stop and look at the pretty fish" stop in the shallows.

From what my diver friends tell me, guides taking their [-]flock of sheep[/-] tourists into "light" overheads like swim-throughs of varying lengths are not uncommon in warm water destinations.

I've had a guide take off like a scalded cat, despite the fact that he knew three out of his five clients were photographers. We eventually ignored him.

Good for you. I've completely lost my bearings while trying to keep up with the guide ("let's see... compass... Oops, the guide has taken off again!") and wouldn't have been able to find my way back to the boat by myself.

To the OP: I started a thread last December based on my experience with guided diving, I don't know if you've seen it. The discussion had quite a few good points, both pro and con guided diving.

 

[victor]

+1 to TSandM
Complancy : The most common issue I have observed is navagation. If the DM disapeared the only option many would have is to surface and hope the boat could find them.

 

[Dyver]

I have spent the majority of my trips in guided charters as a result of visiting highly regulated marine parks. On our last two dives, my dive wife and I shared a boat with a different guide and one lady who shared her aspiration to intern to be a DM. The guide decided to forgo a checkout dive based on our orated experiences. The next two dives had two "'light' overhead swim-throughs", which we spent as ankle weights to the woman scraping ceiling samples with her tank. My wife had to haul her to the boat when she tried to doff in the water and panicked.
On another day, our captain was called back to the dock after two high-profile clients showed up 30 minutes after we departed. They spent the day crashing into coral and pissing off animals.
I have enjoyed many sites through guided dives, but we will either start booking private charters or forgo guided groups altogether or start diving in locations that permit shore diving to avoid stranger danger.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

Cudos to ermaclob for doing independent dive planning. That is Debbie and my preferred outing, but we also go on guided dives. Some places that is all that is available. I have freer reign than most by maintaining a current professional credential and liability insurance but still there are places where we go with the group. Special dives like the hammerhead dive off Molokai, or the Manta night dive on Hawaii are examples. When we are on boats with DM led dives, BY PRIOR ARRANGEMENT AND AGREEMENT we often do our own thing, but I think that is inappropriate unless done by prior agreement. I never denigrate anyone for wanting to dive with a DM or local dive guide. Those dives have been done, and the profile replicated hundreds of thousands of time i all likelihood. But I am all for personal dive planning and execution, so keep it up. Just don't think everyone has to share your view or attitude.
DivemasterDennis

 

[Mantra]

Funny you should ask.

I like a good good guided dive on an unfamiliar site. I especially appreciate a good critter spotter who can point out likely habitats etc.

We have just left Coron in the Philippines, a popular wreck diving site. We went with one of the best reviewed dive outfits on the island.

Day one, a guide on our boat leads five divers into a wreck at 30m on single al80 air tanks. Four of the five were OW divers with less than 30 dives. Fifth diver, tagging behind in completely silted out pitch black conditions was left behind. Fortunately he was experienced in these wrecks, waited, and when nobody turned up looking for him
after three minutes he found his own way out. He was astonished at the fiasco. I was talking to him on the boat after and enjoyed a good dive with him at Barracuda lake afterward.

Day two, my wife and I with another guide from the same outfit and one other diver. Open water diver, 20 dives over two years on holidays. Had 'never seen a wreck'. He had done one 'check out' dive with this guide earlier - but I'm not sure what was being checked out because this guy had no business doing any diving remotely challenging. He followed the guide in to a wreck at 25m into a narrow penetration (corridors, ship on its side). Dude was swimming at a 45 degree angle and completely silted the passage out behind him. We followed for about 5m, and I signaled to my wife we should turn our dive while still being at the entry point to the wreck. We swam along the hull following their bubbles for the next 5 minutes before they exited, turned, and entered through a doorway. I tried to signal the guide with my torch while he was briefly outside the wreck but he wasn't looking around. A plume of silt exploded out the doorway behind. Caught up with the two of them about 20mins later. My wife and I had just been touring the outside of the wreck. Guide wrote on his slate 'have been looking everywhere for you'. Nope. If he had been checking on us at all he might have noticed we at no point followed him in.

This sort of thing seems to be SOP for all operators on that island. Leading OW divers into narrow and lengthy wreck penetrations in silty conditions well beyond recommended OW depths. The very definition of a trust me dive. I can see the conundrum - if, as a dive OP, you were the only one doing the right thing you would be promptly out of business as most of the divers there were very inexperienced holiday divers. On the other hand, we were willing to pay a premium for good safety protocols and actually went there in the hope of getting overhead training. We abandoned this plan.

Oh, and four out if five tanks my wife dove were leaking from the handle. The odd leak is normal, but that ratio speaks to poor servicing, IMO.

We handled the situation by not participating.

Interesting experience.

EDIT: oh, I nearly forgot. The five person dive? They also went into deco. Two of the five were unaware of this, not having computers.

 

[Agility]

I love guided dives!
The guides usually know where to get into and out of the water best, and they have showed me amazing places I could not have found on my own.
The briefing is the time to speak up if the plan does not sound or feel right and if a guide thinks diving is a race he will soon lose me

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Whether the dive is guided or not does not relieve the divers from having their own plan to fall back on should something go wrong. If they are not capable of doing this they should not be in the water. Failure to do this turns the dive into a "trust me" dive. I won't do them. I let any DM or guide know up front that if he/she does anything I consider unsafe or makes me uncomfortable in any way I am under no obligation to follow them. I will abort the dive on my own or fall back on my plan and dive that. If they don't like it too bad. So far every DM I have done this with was actually relieved that they did not have to keep an eye on me.

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