How can GUE/UTD work with so few instructors?

[leabre]

BSAC is the recognized national governing body for dive training standards in the UK and elsewhere. It's run like a non-profit club, but it's members run it through an elected board, similar to NAUI. Also, BSAC diver training standards are recognized by other agencies, and therefore indemnified.

A "GUE Open Water Card" may get you air at a particular dive store, but it won't be the basis for obtaining continuing education through most diver educational agencies. You might as well show up at my shop and ask to take an Advanced Open Water course showing a card printed, "Bob's Dive Training", diver #34 - my insurance won't allow it. It wasn't too long ago that PADI and NAUI did not recognize each's training standards.

I'm all for getting great diver training from any source... just don't allow the pretences of others to become yours.

Which is sad, because I think that GUE and UTD would produce better divers than your typical PADI/NAUI. I've seen a UTD Rec1 cert dive for OW and those divers are far better than most PADI/NAUI rec divers I've dived with even with 100+ dives, and their associated instructors and DM's. That is in skills and performance, not experience, of course.

But there is a tech slant to each. UTD considers open water what NAUI Intro To Tech might be. So there is a bit of disconnect in terminology and purpose. In my mind, UTD is a bit more modern and in touch with newer and better practices but UTD is very heavily "team" oriented. Moreso than any PADI diver I've dived with.

case in point, I often dive with people that have no idea what their air is so I have done now 4 OOA assists (one was a near drowning at 92 ft. and not my buddy, this was a rescue, not OOA assist). Others, after working with them in a training capacity after OW, have no clue what their buddy is doing. Sometimes they descent without agreeing first, and descend not even facing each other, then when they reach the bottom, instead of asking if OK, they each go their seperate directions then look for each other.

I'm not going to knock any agencies, it is clearly the instructor's fault for not hammering it home, but some agencies are more prone to allow this kind of behavior reward with OW card than others. GUE and UTD would never allow it. So from that perspective it could be agency related.

There is very few NAUI shops around here so I have yet to come across a NAUI OW (I am all NAUI from OW to Master Diver and soon DM) so I can't comment. Everyone here is either UTD or PADI. There is a stark difference between the OW between the orgs.

My point being is that it is sad that PADI or NAUI wouldn't recognize a UTD or GUE OW cert, becuase the abilities of a typical OW from those orgs would far surpass those of the typical NAUI and PADI. That is why you pay so much for PADI, they want a dollar for every time you think of hopping in the water.

 

[Clammy]

Plenty of Naui around here. Just go east, they start showing up!

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Thanks everyone. So it sounds like in the future your best bet to get the training you want is find a couple other people who have similar goals and want to progress at a similar pace to yourself and stick together, that way you can work it out with an instructor more easily. Am I interpreting that right?

Of course, I'm in no rush to do this. Right now I'm going to continue with PADI: get Rescue Diver sooner rather than later and get some of the specialties that interest me (plus just going out and diving away from courses is critical). After that I'd like to get into GUE/UTD rec courses (although they're things most other agencies probably consider semi-technical: doubles, mixes with helium, etc.), and after slowly progressing, maybe start true technical diving.

It's not that I'm particularly interested in minimalist diving (although maybe once you go technical, or particularly caves, that becomes more critical). But the focus on bouyancy, trim, different kicks, and some good skills like primary donation seem like good skills for minimalist and "christmas tree" divers alike, and it really sounds like the courses truly make you a better diver. Unfortunately, even this early in my diving career, I'm starting to see some major deficiencies with PADI for anything more than a vacation diver. I probably won't ever be a "religious" DIR diver, just because in general I like self sufficiency and redundancy a bit too much, but I still think these organizations have a lot to teach me.

And I hope UTD can continue to make strides, because I've got to say reading both of their webpages, I get a bit of a better impression for the type of diving I may be interested in down the road. It sounds as though GUE is a little bit more geared towards cave divers. UTD seems to be a little bit less strict with gear choices, I liked the look of their progression a little better, and they have the wreck courses and some cool looking specialties. So I hope they are able to continue to be successful and by the time I want it, training will be a bit easier to find.

 

[Clammy]

Well if you want to come down to SoCal for a weekend or 2, I'm trying to get a class together for later this year!

 

[Gombessa]

A "GUE Open Water Card" may get you air at a particular dive store, but it won't be the basis for obtaining continuing education through most diver educational agencies.

I've wondered and inquired about how recognized GUE (and to a much greater extent, UTD) certification cards would be, especially in more tropical "destination" and resort locations that mainly cater to OW/AOW divers. But you're missing a few things. First, the VAST majority of divers who take GUE courses already have certification from other agencies (I don't actually know if anyone has actually finished the OW course yet--it's pretty new), so they're covered by PADI or SSI or whoever originally certified them as well. Second, GUE's roots and specialty are in technical dive training, and as far as I know, other technical diving agencies WILL recognize a GUE certification for further training within the progression of other agencies, be it cave, tech, or what not. It's true that GUE itself shows no reciprocity with any other agency, but that's a different discussion. If some PADI instructor not recognizing a GUE card makes GUE a "club" and not an "agency" then TDI, ANDI, NSS-CDS, NACD and all those other tech training "agencies" might as well be clubs too.

 

[Dan Ziegner]

If some PADI instructor not recognizing a GUE card makes GUE a "club" and not an "agency" then TDI, ANDI, NSS-CDS, NACD and all those other tech training "agencies" might as well be clubs too.

I'm specifically refering to "GUE Recreational certifications" in the above post.

At present, every diver who has a technical course certification (including from GUE) has at least an Open Water C-Card from a recognized diver educational agency. And, to become a cave instructor with either NACD or NSS-CDS one must have an instructor certification from a recognized diver educational agency.

 

[leabre]

Well if you want to come down to SoCal for a weekend or 2, I'm trying to get a class together for later this year!

If you're speaking to me, I'm already here! BTW: do you meet up at Vets on Wednesdays? If so, I'll join on occasion, just let me know.

 

[Gombessa]

I'm specifically refering to "GUE Recreational certifications" in the above post.

Well GUE/UTD Open Water certs will very likely have a harder time at some dive locations, as I imagine many foreign certifications do. However, I'm willing to bet that these cert cards are going to have no trouble getting people into a typical PADI/NAUI/SSI recreational AOW class.

 

[Clammy]

If you're speaking to me, I'm already here! BTW: do you meet up at Vets on Wednesdays? If so, I'll join on occasion, just let me know.

Oh I know you are already here and planning to take UTD (with ligersandtions?)

I meant if the OP decided since he's up north.

I climb on Wednesdays so I can't dive those nights. I'm trying to see if I can get a night dive in during the week at vets to practice but I have very little time on weeknights. Claudette said she'd help me out on weeknights at vets too.

Unfortunately I hurt my ear over the weekend diving in SD and Laguna. I'm going to see a doctor tomorrow and an ENT later this week. I may be out of the water for a few weeks =/

 

[grazie42]

I flew to florida for my technical training (not GUE/UTD), the instructor I wanted to learn from lived there so I went...I think its pretty rare (unless you live in a "hot spot") to get local training...

ymmv