how many dives until...?

[Steve_C]

Did you start working as DM right after you got your course ?

Understand why you ask the question, but I may not be the best to ask.

I got the DM because I found myself doing a lot of instabuddying with new divers and I always was the lead and felt that the training would be helpful. It was never my intention to make money/career out of it. A good friend is an instructor and soon after the DM I started assisting him from time to time with a variety of courses.

I have noted that with some newer instabuddies that if you mention along the way that you are a DM it seems to make them more comfortable. I often do not mention it to buddies but if they are nervous about having a new buddy I may.

I have noticed that often times shops/boats etc grow some of their own DM and usually the DMs either become or are instructors too. Their is an argument to get trained in the area you want to work. You make more contacts that way also.

 

[RandomGuy1]

My first dive for AOW was dive #9 for me and rescue was around dive #30. Mind you I am very comfortable in the water and been swimming since around the time I could walk. I feel like those courses were around the right time for me, but everyone is different in their abilities. What was right for me may not be right for you. Another thing that probably helped me with the AOW and the rescue class is the fact that the instructor worked with me to tailor the classes to my needs / wants / abilities rather than just blindly following the queue cards. Your instructor could make or break these classes no matter how many dives you have.
Haven't taken the DM class because I don't feel the need to move into the professional ranks. Best of luck to you whatever you decide.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Amazing answer ! it is true that one should feel confortable within its limits of training! wise!
Still im curious about your route as a diver

My route ...

OW - YMCA YScuba program
AOW - YMCA @ around 25 dives (instructor mandated)
Rescue - YMCA @ around 40 dives
DM - NAUI @ around 400 dives
Instructor - NAUI @ around 900 dives
Fundies - GUE @ around 1000 dives
Tech 1 - NAUI @ around 1100 dives
Tech 2 - NAUI @ around 1300 dives
Wreck - NAUI @ around 1400 dives
Cave - NSS-CDS @ around 1700 dives

There were other classes along the way, but they were more side-trips than the main route ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I took AOW right after OW. They really should be combined into one course IMO. But then not as many people would qualify for certification and that means less $$$ for the dive industry.

It depends entirely on why you want to take the AOW. Perhaps the most common reason people want to take the class is because they want access to deeper dives, and many charters won't take them there without the certification. And this is one reason why I don't think it should be taken straight from OW ... because if you're not yet comfortable with your skills at shallower depths, you should not be going deeper.

If, on the other hand, it's more dives with an instructor ... which is another common reason you hear people give ... then a specialty class or workshop would be a more appropriate route to take.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

But it will also mean less people getting into diving and enjoying the ocean we all love. This is very bad for all

What's bad for all is the dropout rate ... something close to 75% ... among divers who get OW certified. There are many reasons why people drop out, but one of the most prolific ones is that people learn just enough in OW class to scare the crap out of themselves ... or just never really develop a comfort zone ... and decide to go find some other way to spend their recreational dollars. We need to keep in mind that while dive professionals tend to look at it from a business perspective, their students are looking at it as a recreational activity ... and if they're not having fun, they'll go find something else to do.

There is a fine line between offering an complete and comprehensive entry level course and offering an overkill PhD. program right from primary school. There has to be a balance between the need and what is reasonable

I completely agree ... but that balance between need and reasonable doesn't necessarily boil down to a choice between pushing the next class vs being overly comprehensive. There are other options. I previously mentioned specialty classes ... a well-taught peak performance buoyancy class can give students a lot of value, particularly coming shortly after an OW class. I used to offer workshops ... tailored to the student ... that emphasized optimizing buoyancy control, finning techniques, and other skills as chosen by the student. It proved very popular, primarily as a "bridge" between OW and AOW, to get students more comfortable in the water, fine-tune good diving habits, and help them gain supervised experience. GUE Fundamentals is another good way to gain those same skills and experience without handing a student a card that tells them they're somehow "qualified" to go deep after just a handful of dives which, in many cases, barely scratches the surface on what's needful to know before going there safely and competently.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Divers don't need 'experience' before progressing to AOW....they need ABILITY.

Ability is supposed to arise from effective training. If a diver doesn't have sufficient ability to benefit from AOW directly after OW qualification, then their training didn't meet its goals.

Citing a need to 'gain experience' is the scam-instructor's ultimate excuse. Just blame inability on the student....

I will take issue with those statements ... pretty much all of them.

One does not "master" anything in OW class ... not even a well-taught, comprehensive OW class. No more than someone taking basic piano lessons masters playing the piano after just a handful of hours of instruction and about two hours of practice. The expectation is just unrealistic, and it's neither the fault of the instructor/agency nor the student. It's a false expectation of what to expect to get from the class. OW instruction doesn't teach you ability ... it teaches you how to gain it without hurting yourself. The learning comes ... as it does with the piano ... by spending time practicing. We humans were never designed to be underwater. We have both physical and mental/emotional limitations that need to be overcome. The good news is that we are adaptable, and therefore overcoming those limitations is possible. The bad news is that it takes time, effort, and practice. Some pick it up more quickly than others ... but we all need some amount of practice to do so.

OW training can completely meet its goals and still not prepare a student for taking a class where ... after a single dive ... they are suddenly told they're good to go deep. Were it not for that tendency of so many divers to chase depth, I would be less hesitant to accept students directly from OW to AOW ... but that remains the primary reason why many (perhaps the majority) of divers want to take AOW. And it in no way does anything more than introduce them to what it feels like to be there.

Ask yourself how many divers you've ever heard say they didn't get anything out of their AOW class. Then contemplate why. In some cases it's because the class was poorly taught, but in most cases I believe it's because the student wasn't yet ready to take it. They were still struggling with the "mastery" of their basic skills that they were told they'd achieved during OW. That's a misleading concept ... no one "masters" anything from trying it a couple times in a controlled environment. Repetition, contextual learning, and adaptation are what leads to mastery. And if you're struggling to control your buoyancy ... if you're waving your hands around trying to maintain position ... if you're having to constantly kick while holding yourself in a more-or-less vertical position in order to avoid touching the bottom ... you haven't "mastered" buoyancy, and have no business being at 100 feet no matter how benign the conditions.

And that isn't to "blame" anyone for the lack of ability ... just like any other skill you've ever learned in your lifetime, it boils down to practice. And putting yourself into a different situation without adequate practice is a really good way to stunt your growth as a diver, because you'll be focusing on building on skills you haven't yet developed to a point where they can support what you need to learn.

It's never a smart idea to start building structures on top of an incomplete foundation ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DevonDiver]

In one way, AOW is every bit as much a "skills" course as OW is.

In what 'one' way?

What new 'skills' are introduced on AOW?

Adventure dives are primarily experiential. Where there are skills, they're nearly all just extensions/derivatives/repetitions of OW skills.

A lot of technical specialties are like this, as you know.

What's a 'technical specialty'?

PADI Master Technical Diver? LOL

 

[DevonDiver]

I will take issue with those statements ... pretty much all of them.

I've been writing a training related article this week. I need to publish that and it'll address exactly the comments I made.

You'll see we aren't really opposing in viewpoints. If you've heard of Ericsson and Pool's work on Deliberate Practice, you'll know what to expect.

Telling divers to go and get 'experience' is a really major abdication by instructors, where it's a compensation for a shortfall in training. As if it's the student's fault they didn't reach an expected level during the (economic) time and dive confines of their course...

OW isn't an 'intro to diving' course.

If an OW diver is certified to 'dive independently without professional supervision', 5th eye sure as heck should have the capacity to do some undemanding 'fun' dives with an instructor on AOW.

We (instructors) tell students to go get experience. What does that even mean? Go do diving? Since when is that an optimal route to ability enhancement?

 

[snowdog61]

AOW for me didn't happen until over 200+ dives. I didn't see the need for it and other than being excluded from a few charter trips (namely the Spiegel Grove in Largo) it didn't impact me. I got my nitrox cert via a SB Invasion (free ) and was doing deep anyways - I have friends with boats. I was finally more of less shamed into it on a subsequent SB Surge trip. Rescue is one cert that I do believe is very worthwhile if you plan on staying in and doing AOW. Diving and learning what good diving "looks" like and (what it actually entails) was more beneficial to me than carrying a card. If I had to do things again, I probably would have gotten my nitrox/AOW earlier if I had known a good instructor. If you are comfortable in the water and have good control of your trim and buoyancy everything subsequent is much easier - whether it is taking photos, shooting a SMB or cutting off the braided line that somehow got hung up in your fins. A good instructor will evaluate your abilities and then decide whether you are ready to progress (and hopefully fix what your previous "cert-mill" instructor let slide or just didn't).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In what 'one' way?

What new 'skills' are introduced on AOW?

Adventure dives are primarily experiential. Where there are skills, they're nearly all just extensions/derivatives/repetitions of OW skills.

It depends on the agency and curriculum. Not all AOW classes are created equal..

A well-taught AOW class will, as you say, provide extensions/derivatives/repetitions of OW skills, but at a different level. It's a class where you go from learning what you should do to how you should be doing it.

• Instead of just telling you to dive with a buddy, it should focus on helping you develop awareness and communication skills that will make you a better one ... skills that you simply had neither the physical nor mental bandwidth for in OW class because you were too busy learning the basics.
• Instead of telling you to "monitor your gauge", it should be a place to learn basic gas management skills, like calculating air consumption rates, and getting some real data showing how increased depth affects your air consumption. In my class, students learned how to implement a dive plan that included making sure they had enough gas for the dive before they even got in the water ... because being proactive is better than being reactive when it comes to breathing underwater.
• Instead of doing basic "out and back" navigating ... which does little more than give you some exposure to a compass ... it can include exercises that will teach you fundamental navigating skills like mental mapping, following complex headings, using visual cues as well as your depth/time gauges to find your way back to your entry point.
• AOW can (in our area, should) be the level at which you learn how to deploy an SMB, and under what circumstances you should consider doing so. It's a great place to learn the basic use of tools like a reel, lift bag, and other tools for basic S&R.

AOW doesn't have to be experiential. For divers in my area, making it so is a total waste of money, because that means you'll come out of it just as inept and dependent as you went into it. It needs to be a class where ... if you're going to get a card that says you're qualified to dive deep, or at night, or in low vis, or in current ... you damn well better be able to. Because whether you choose to or not, you're eventually going to find yourself dealing with all those things. And we don't do dive guides around here ... and chances are the person you're diving with isn't going to be any better trained or experienced than you are.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)