ignorance almost killed me yesterday

[Uncle Pug]

I am interested in whether or not you were able to have any of your gear recovered. Now that you are thankfully safe... the loss of SCUBA STUFF begins to loom as a major set back!!! Do you have any friends that can retrieve the stuff still on the bottom?

 

[WreckWriter]

This actually gets better with every post as the new details come out.

I guess this will further damage my existing reputation as a nice guy but someone needs to speak out of the front of their mouth here.

I find it rather surprizing that only one person has suggested that Snuggle seek a new hobby. I know, everyone is trying to be nice and supportive but you should all consider something else...

The more support you give Snuggle, the more you tell him or her (sorry, I don't know which), that's everything is ok, the more likely that he or she is going to rationalize this incident in his or her mind as being "no big deal".

The fact of the matter is that, if not for a stroke of pure luck (the fisherman), this was a fatal accident, cause unknown. If everything reported is accurate, it was a very big deal and should be cause for, at the very least, seeking additional medical evaluation (from a DIVING doctor, not just your regular doc), and seeking additional training so that one learns why we shouldn't do boneheaded things in the water.

Personally I don't expect that the medical condition had anything to do with this. I think the diver just flat freaked and, as the famous quote about astronaut Gus Grissom goes, "screwed the pooch".

You're not doing Snuggle any favors by mollycoddling him or her. The next time could be the last time. Think about that before, or after, you flame me.

WW

 

[Doof]

No flame here, but I just wanted to point out that sometimes, people who "shouldn't be diving" educate themselves on the risks, and decide to do it anyway.

Cave divers, wreck divers... they all know the risks of their chosen hobby. There's a real possibility that, despite their best efforts, they may not come back from a dive.

Does this mean they shouldn't do it?

It may even be an argument FOR solo diving. If I knew there was a potential that a medical condition of mine could lead to a serious accident underwater, then I may be willing to take that risk for myself, but be unwilling to saddle another person with that responsibility.

So yeah... if diabetes or whatever turns out to be the root cause of this, then Snuggle may want to rethink diving as a hobby. But I don't think it necessarily means they SHOULD give it up.

 

[Bonnet Ray]

Wreckwriter

I don't think anyone has told snuggles that what s/he did was ok. We are just glad that s/he is here to tell us the story. I believe that just telling someone that they did wrong doesn't help anyone but a bit of support to get back in the water having learnt the very diificult lessons that s/he has is why we are here, isn't it?

Snuggles knows that what s/he did was stupid, s/he won't do it again. Just telling her/him it was wrong doesn't help, does it?? Everytime we go diving we learn something new, sometimes good, sometimes bad but it all adds to the experience. This person had the balls to tell us what they had done, I for one respect that and shall learn fron their mistakes. Not that I shall be drysuit diving as I am a warm water wimp .

 

[WJL]

Bonnet Ray once bubbled...
WJL

Most people with diabetes will recognize the signs of a hypo long before they go into coma and are capable of signaling to their buddy that they need to surface before there is any real danger. I would guess that people with poor hypo warning would not be allowed to dive by their docs. As I and the people with diabetes that I know who dive always check their blood glucose before they dive there is little chance of a hypo anyway. I usually go in on 10 and surface on 7, sorry I don't know the US figures.

Let me preface this by saying that I know very little about diabetes, or how a diabetic feels when a "hypo" is coming on.

If what happened to snuggles was a hypo, which is yet to be determined, it is clear that snuggles did not feel it coming, or snuggles would not have gone diving. So it appears that snuggles may be a diabetic with "poor hypo warning." Regardless of how small the chance of a hypo might be, it appears to have happened to snuggles.

Having a "hypo" underwater is probably one of the worst places for it to happen. You will probably agree with this statement.

Whether or not a particular diabetic has good awareness of when a hypo event is immanent, that diver has some risks to confront that the average diver does not. That person may misjudge their condition. That person may not tell their physician about his or her scuba diving, and may end up diving when a physician would say not to. That person may be unable to surface before "real" danger is at hand.

I believe that this culture of blaming people with diabetes before they have done anything wrong is encouraging people with diabetes not to say that they have diabetes (too many diabetes in one sentence!). This is when things get dangerous.

Nobody is blaming anybody for anything. There is no fault associated with having diabetes. That does not mean that the fact that someone has diabetes should be ignored.

I would be unhappy if I learned that a dive buddy had concealed his or her diabetes from me. If someone I dive with may have a seizure underwater, I need to know that. I get to choose both whether I am comfortable with my ability to deal with the seizure should it occur, and with the possibility that my buddy may be having a seizure while I am about to run out of air.

 

[Genesis]

IF this was not a medically-induced problem (that is, it was not a matter of "fitness to dive" from a medical perspective) then I think you're WAY off base WW.

That Snuggles admitted to screwing the pooch (and nearly having it cap him or her) doesn't mean that he or she is the only one who has done it. Quite the contrary. Many divers have at one time or another done something boneheaded and had something bad happen as a consequence.

We all calibrate our personal risk tolerance in partaking in this activity. Then again we do it crossing the street too, and yet nobody gives you a hard time when someone runs you over and breaks both of your legs while you're walking to the store.

Something has happened here in the last few weeks, and I'm not sure I like it. I have read the SeaJay/Mike war, along with a few others. There's a definite "sea change" afoot here that is, IMHO, negative in its impact in that there is developing a STRONG discouragement towards people reporting not only the good, but also the bad and the ugly.

Yet how do we all learn except to see the bad and ugly, along with the good? We don't, and that is a major problem!

Bill, you may well have someone have a seizure on you underwater due to O2 tox or due to an UNKNOWN medical issue. If you are unwilling to dive with someone, then dive solo. Part of being a buddy is that you may get saddled with an unexpected emergency situation - that is part of the reality of BEING a buddy!

If you want to quiz your potential buddies on their "fitness to dive", go right ahead. But what if someone who you just met on the boat decides they'd rather not deal with that kind of inquiry, as they deem it overly intrusive, and that leaves you diving solo?

 

[WreckWriter]

Doof once bubbled...
So yeah... if diabetes or whatever turns out to be the root cause of this, then Snuggle may want to rethink diving as a hobby. But I don't think it necessarily means they SHOULD give it up.

Not necessarily, no, but it certainly does mean that they SHOULD seek a much greater level of understanding of how it relates to their particular condition.

A "doctor's permission" means squat unless the doctor is a diver and/or has a thorough understanding of how diving affects the human body. I can promise you that very little time is spent on the subject im med school and that those doctors who do have this understanding have taken it upon themselves to specifically seek out the knowledge.

WW

 

[dvleemin]

Bonnet Ray once bubbled...
WJL

Most people with diabetes will recognise the signs of a hypo long before they go into coma and are capable of signalling to their buddy that they need to surface before there is any real danger. I would guess that people with poor hypo warning would not be allowed to dive by their docs. As I and the people with diabetes that I know who dive always check their blood glucose before they dive there is little chance of a hypo anyway. I usually go in on 10 and surface on 7, sorry I don't know the US figures.

This subject has been done many times but it still makes me mad because I don't quite fit the box I am danagerous to me and others! In truth I know more about my fittest to dive than most, I am always extremely aware of the conditions and what they will be doing to my sugar levels and I never dive unless I am 100% happy with my sugar levels.

I believe that this culture of blaming people with diabetes before they have done anything wrong is encouraging people with diabetes not to say that they have diabetes (too many diabetes in one sentence!). This is when things get dangerous.

Come on Snuggles tell us if this was due to your diabetes and if you did check before you went in. If you didn't well you didn't, you've lived to know better next time

You're so offended you thought you'd post the same thing twice =-)

Seriously though, you're WAY over-reacting. WE're not a anti-diabetic board . The issue here is not so much that she (Pretty sure Snuggle said she was a she in another thread) is a diabetic, but rather a diabetic AND was diving solo AND was diving in an unfamiliar area. Thats asking for something like this to happen. I can't see any reason why a diabetic can't dive under the right circumstances, and I think most people here would aggree. However, this was definately NOT the right circumstances.

Are you saying you think its smart for a diabetic to dive solo in an unfamiliar lake??

Darryl

 

[WreckWriter]

Bonnet Ray once bubbled...
I believe that just telling someone that they did wrong doesn't help anyone but a bit of support to get back in the water having learnt the very diificult lessons that s/he has is why we are here, isn't it?

No Ray, that's not why we're here.

We're here, at least I am, to try to impart what knowledge I have about diving. This won't always mean leaning towards the "anyone can dive" viewpoint. It will always meaning speaking the truth as I see it.

WW

 

[WreckWriter]

Genesis once bubbled...
IF this was not a medically-induced problem (that is, it was not a matter of "fitness to dive" from a medical perspective) then I think you're WAY off base WW.

That Snuggles admitted to screwing the pooch (and nearly having it cap him or her) doesn't mean that he or she is the only one who has done it. Quite the contrary. Many divers have at one time or another done something boneheaded and had something bad happen as a consequence.

We all calibrate our personal risk tolerance in partaking in this activity. Then again we do it crossing the street too, and yet nobody gives you a hard time when someone runs you over and breaks both of your legs while you're walking to the store.

Something has happened here in the last few weeks, and I'm not sure I like it. I have read the SeaJay/Mike war, along with a few others. There's a definite "sea change" afoot here that is, IMHO, negative in its impact in that there is developing a STRONG discouragement towards people reporting not only the good, but also the bad and the ugly.

Yet how do we all learn except to see the bad and ugly, along with the good? We don't, and that is a major problem!

Bill, you may well have someone have a seizure on you underwater due to O2 tox or due to an UNKNOWN medical issue. If you are unwilling to dive with someone, then dive solo. Part of being a buddy is that you may get saddled with an unexpected emergency situation - that is part of the reality of BEING a buddy!

If you want to quiz your potential buddies on their "fitness to dive", go right ahead. But what if someone who you just met on the boat decides they'd rather not deal with that kind of inquiry, as they deem it overly intrusive, and that leaves you diving solo?

Maybe so Karl. I've been caught off base before.

You're right, bad experiences should be reported, I've reported several of my own pooch-screwings on this board. When one does so though, one should always be prepared to hear things other than positive regarding the experience.

I don't quiz my dive buddies Karl. I don't need to, I dive within my peer group and the "just met on the boat" things are extremely rare.

I suggest you page back and read Rooster's post. It indicates pretty clearly that this whole thing is no major surprize. That goes towards "fitness to dive" if anything does.

and yes Karl, there has been a Sea Change here, but its not the one you perceive but rather a move towards people being unwilling to speak their minds and also a move away from serious diving discussions and farther into the pink snorkel and force fins arena.

WW