Insights from Rescue for BP/W users

[DivingCRNA]

Here is my opinion... and it's just that... for what 2 cents it is worth...

There is nothing wrong with diving Back Plates and Wings in and of itself. The problem lies in that not many people are using them. Now there may be areas of the country and within specific little groups of divers (that have been sold on their benefits) that this is not true... however I've been diving a lot - in fact, I dive almost every day... and no matter where I go on earth, there might be 1 or 2 BP/W set ups for every 20 divers.

Usually these are set up by advanced divers, often aspiring tech divers with specific configurations etc... The average recreational diver is not using them... and the average person taking the Rescue course is not using them. My entire point here is that using them to take classes amongst a group of people that will never use them and likely never even see someone with one on, is ridiculous. People should train with people of like minds. If everyone you're ever going to dive with is wearing a regular old jacket style or back inflate BC... then do your rescue practices in that gear. If everyone is wearing BP/W then by all means use them in the class. Mixing the two is confusing and accomplishes nothing.

For those that might argue that it is good for each to know and understand what the other is wearing, there is some validity to that... however most likely, things that aren't seen, worked with and practiced regularly will likely be lost on most... and the benefit of having learned with it is lost as well.

I'm an Instructor, Dive Guide, Dive Business Owner and have been diving all over the world... I would honestly say that outside of tech divers, less than 1 in 100 divers is diving BP/W... and while that number is slightly increasing... it is simply because LDS's are brainwashing people into spending more money for something that is less efficient and more costly to the diver.

Again, these are my opinions, but they are backed by experience... so Happy Diving to All.

You have GOT to be kidding. I would argue that in an emergency it is EASIER to get someone out of a BP/W. Cut the two shoulder straps and the waist strap and they are out. After cutting the waist strap, it should easily slide out of the crotch strap. The web cuts easily with any knife/scisors. There may be variations in gear configuration, but all the harnesses are threaded basically the same.

In a real emergency, no one in a BP/W is going to be mad that they have to spend $8 to reweb their backplate if they survive the emergency. I can see being mad about a $2000 drysuit, but not my webbing harness.

In a "regular" vest BC, or back inflate bc, there are buckles and velcro to deal with, and maybe zippers. And they are all different. If you cut a "regular" BC it is gonna cost hundreds of dollars to replace THE WHOLE BC. Not cheap to do at all.

As for cost-I put together my BP/W for LESS than the cost of an average "regular BC" and got a superior performing product. I needed a new BC and started researching what the best long term BC would be and I concluded, on my own, that the BP/W would be the best. My LDS does not sell BP/W set-ups and I had to go to the internet for the materials. That, my friend, is the market at work.

 

[ghostdiver1957]

Quoting Bruciebabe:



Very thought-provoking statement. Being the odd man out is clearly in violation of the principle of standardizing gear . . . leaving the diver espousing that philosophy with the choice either to use a gear setup which is not his usual, and which he believes to have disadvantages, or to import a similarly equipped and trained buddy (which is what I have more or less done). Potholes in the road less taken

Finally what I'm trying to get out is becoming clear. Reality is that outside of the NE US, and to some extent the West Coast of the US, BP/W set ups are uncommon. Most OW divers are never introduced to them. If you are wearing the set up on vacation amongst a group of non BP/W divers, you are your own worst enemy... as no one will be familiar at all with what you're wearing. Thanks for making some better sense of what I've been trying to say... you've done it eloquently.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My entire point here is that using them to take classes amongst a group of people that will never use them and likely never even see someone with one on, is ridiculous. People should train with people of like minds. If everyone you're ever going to dive with is wearing a regular old jacket style or back inflate BC... then do your rescue practices in that gear. If everyone is wearing BP/W then by all means use them in the class. Mixing the two is confusing and accomplishes nothing.

For those that might argue that it is good for each to know and understand what the other is wearing, there is some validity to that... however most likely, things that aren't seen, worked with and practiced regularly will likely be lost on most... and the benefit of having learned with it is lost as well.

So apparently you missed the point of the original poster ... to whom you were addressing your first response.

One should train in the gear one is diving in. In an area where people dive in many different types of configurations ... and in this area the BP to BCD ratio is much, much higher than you are apparently used to ... there is benefit in not only training in this gear, but familiarizing those with whom you dive to the characteristics of the gear. That goes for far more than a backplate ... how many variations of BCD do you know of out there? I can think of quite a few off the top of my head ...

I'm an Instructor, Dive Guide, Dive Business Owner and have been diving all over the world... I would honestly say that outside of tech divers, less than 1 in 100 divers is diving BP/W... and while that number is slightly increasing... it is simply because LDS's are brainwashing people into spending more money for something that is less efficient and more costly to the diver.

Again, these are my opinions, but they are backed by experience... so Happy Diving to All.

For all of your experience, you seem painfully ignorant of some things.

FWIW - I currently own four complete BP/wing rigs, have tried and sold a few more ... as well as have worn out three standard BCDs and tried and sold a few more of those. And in my experience, I have never paid more for a BP/wing setup than I would pay for a BCD of equal quality ... in fact, in most cases it costs considerably less. So this "brainwashing people into spending more money for something that is less efficient and more costly" rationale seems to apply to people who insist on trying to sell divers on the "value" of the traditional BCD ... which is less efficient and more costly than a quality BP/wing setup.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ghostdiver1957]

So apparently you missed the point of the original poster ... to whom you were addressing your first response.

One should train in the gear one is diving in. In an area where people dive in many different types of configurations ... and in this area the BP to BCD ratio is much, much higher than you are apparently used to ... there is benefit in not only training in this gear, but familiarizing those with whom you dive to the characteristics of the gear. That goes for far more than a backplate ... how many variations of BCD do you know of out there? I can think of quite a few off the top of my head ...


For all of your experience, you seem painfully ignorant of some things.

FWIW - I currently own four complete BP/wing rigs, have tried and sold a few more ... as well as have worn out three standard BCDs and tried and sold a few more of those. And in my experience, I have never paid more for a BP/wing setup than I would pay for a BCD of equal quality ... in fact, in most cases it costs considerably less. So this "brainwashing people into spending more money for something that is less efficient and more costly" rationale seems to apply to people who insist on trying to sell divers on the "value" of the traditional BCD ... which is less efficient and more costly than a quality BP/wing setup.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I did not miss the point at all... I suggested he train with others using the same configuration...

As for the costs, around here BP/W set ups cost far more by the time you end up accessorizing them than do "regular" BCD's. I don't know why you go through so much gear... but I've been using one quality BCD for 9 years now... it's a little faded... but it does what it is suppose to do. I guess I've bought quality and you have not.

 

[PacketSniffer]

If a diver needed to instantly be out of a rig to effect a rescue, then I doubt I would be fumbling around for buckles, straps etc... no matter what he she was wearing. If I had my shears on me and I felt that was the fastest way... I'd likely cut the straps no matter what type of set up it was.
Ken

So, what are we debating here??????? The bottom line is that no matter what you are wearing, you or I will be able to get someone out of their BCD in a rescue. You have just pointed out that no matter what you are wearing, that is possible. End of story. Let's move on.


Richard

 

[ghostdiver1957]

Please explain this, why would I have no business wearing a bp/w?

My take on this diver was that he is a new diver working his way through every class in the book before ever doing any real (or minimal) diving. He probably isn't all that familiar with exactly what he needs for the type of diving he will be doing. My point was for him to slow down... and the use of the word "crap" was not meant to imply the BP/W's are crap, but rather it was a general term to imply he is buying more stuff than he needs, is ready for or has use for. Such as in asking my wife when she comes home with three bags of new clothes, why she bought all that crap. The clothes are very nice... but you get the point.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I did not miss the point at all... I suggested he train with others using the same configuration...

FWIW - TSandM is a she ...

As for the costs, around here BP/W set ups cost far more by the time you end up accessorizing them than do "regular" BCD's.

Nonsense ... prices don't vary that much from east coast to west ... and not at all if you're ordering online.


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[PacketSniffer]

The ONLY reason why the jacket/vest style BCD is more common is because that is what is generally sold in the brick and mortar dive shops. Duh. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

If dive shops really stocked the back plate & wing and explained the true pros/cons, I'm sure we'd see a whole lot more of them in use. They're not just for caving, ya know. George Irvine will even admit to that.


Richard

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My take on this diver was that he is a new diver working his way through every class in the book before ever doing any real (or minimal) diving. He probably isn't all that familiar with exactly what he needs for the type of diving he will be doing. My point was for him to slow down... and the use of the word "crap" was not meant to imply the BP/W's are crap, but rather it was a general term to imply he is buying more stuff than he needs, is ready for or has use for. Such as in asking my wife when she comes home with three bags of new clothes, why she bought all that crap. The clothes are very nice... but you get the point.

Again, you're wrong ...

You keep referring to TSandM as a "he" ... despite the fact that even in the original post she states that she took this class with her husband. What does that say about your ability to grasp the basics of this conversation?

Secondly, your "take" on TSandM is quite wrong. As someone who dives with her regularly, I can tell you she's in the water diving, practicing, and trying to improve her skills every chance she gets ... I think it took her less than three months after getting her C-card to log her first 60 dives. That puts her in something like the top 1 percentile of divers in terms of logged bottom time per month.


... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[pakman]

darn, went to put the popcorn in the microwave and missed all this...

BTW, I'm finding I run into the occaisional BP/W even in the third world out here on recreational trips (even outside the typical tech diving havens around here)... Anyways, even if I hadn't switched to a bp/w, I think it would have been a disservice if my rescue instructor didn't discuss/ wear his bp/w to explain the nuances of that setup as it relates to in water rescues (of course that was all part of grand scheme to get me to buy expensive tech gear and training... )