Insights from Rescue for BP/W users

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Not being critical here at all, but does "basicly hosed" mean give up, I seem to recall you are an ER Dr. so I mean this as a serious question? i.e. where is the trade off between a longish swim towing and trying to do some kind of in water CPR/rescue breathing? Do you stop every little bit and try again or give up the attempt at breathing and just swim as fast as possible to shore/boat. Not clear where the line might be, I think it might be helpful for you to share your thoughts.

Not to put you on the spot.:D and I will understand if you don't want to respond in detail - liability issues and such.
 
I think I'd be willing to say that no meaningful CPR can be done in the water. To be effective, CPR really has to compress the chest, and that pretty much requires the application of one's body weight to the patient's chest, compressing it between the rescuer's hands and a hard surface. I don't see any way that can be done effectively in the water.

It is probably possible to ventilate a patient adequately in the water. But it's going to be very difficult for the rescuer to do this AND tow the victim for any length of time. Either the patient isn't going to get a lot of ventilation, or the rescuer isn't going to make much headway with the two, unless you have an extremely fit and strong and fast-swimming rescuer (which isn't me).

Further, you have to look at the etiology of respiratory arrest. As you can imagine, the drive to breathe is a very basic and powerful one. You stop breathing when you can't breathe (obstruction or choking, one place where attempting a couple of rescue breaths MIGHT be very useful), when something has depressed your drive to breathe (eg. narcotics overdose, something unlikely to have occurred underwater), or the brainstem center that controls breathing is so badly damaged or depressed that it is no longer functioning. The latter can occur when the brainstem is not getting any circulation -- cardiac arrest -- or when it has been deprived of oxygen for a significant period of time (and persistent apnea, or lack of attempt to breathe, is considered equivalent to brain death in neurologically devastated patients). The one circumstance I can think of, off the top of my head, where you might see no respiratory drive in a patient who might have meaningful neurologic survival, is in severe hypothermia -- but by the time you are not attempting to breathe any more, you are quite likely to fibrillate and lose circulation as well.

What would I, personally, do, if I were in the water with someone who was not breathing, did not respond to a couple of rescue breaths, and was far from a dry, solid surface? Most likely, try to tow the person and periodically give a couple of breaths. I'd be pretty unhappy about the whole thing, though, knowing the outcome was likely to be poor, and I most certainly would not put myself at risk of drowning by persisting to exhaustion in that circumstance. Just pragmatic reality speaking.
 
ghostdiver1957:
A note specific for clarification...

I say 1 or 2 out of 20... specific to my region... the northeast US. I've never seen a diver diving this in the Bahamas, Mexico, Central America, Australia etc... Recreational spots. The guys I know in the Northeast US are moving more to this, but the number is still only 1 o2 out of 20.

FYI, I live in a 'warm-water/recreational' diving spot and I personally know of at least 4 divers locally who dive with a BP/W.
I believe that it's gaining in popularity and can recall that the first time I encountered a BP/W, it didn't take me long to realise where the releases were and how to operate them.
It's not that complicated.

Really the point of my post is that certain gear configurations (BP/W) aren't geographic specific and that a diver in any region of the world stands the chance to encounter said gear configuration.
 
Re our rescue class being "wet" vs "dry."

Our first two pool sessions everyone was wet -- the pool is at 82 and way too hot for dry.

The next two pool sessions everyone will be dry -- the pool will be in the mid-his 60's.

BTW, IF my buddy can't get me breathing after a couple of breaths, I hope his/her fingers "slip" and let me go gently into the night. I do NOT want to "survive" with the brain damage that would come from 6-10 minutes of no O2 to the brain.
 
Peter Guy:
Re our rescue class being "wet" vs "dry."

Our first two pool sessions everyone was wet -- the pool is at 82 and way too hot for dry.

The next two pool sessions everyone will be dry -- the pool will be in the mid-his 60's.

BTW, IF my buddy can't get me breathing after a couple of breaths, I hope his/her fingers "slip" and let me go gently into the night. I do NOT want to "survive" with the brain damage that would come from 6-10 minutes of no O2 to the brain.

(Bravo TSands, informative post) Thanks for reminding me of the pressure issue like the ones on the various ambu bags. (Responsive vs Non)

People that feel strongly about life support decisions made futher down the time-line should have a medical directive. Or even better give Medical Power of Attorney to your spouse.
 
oops.
I still think I question removing flotation on an unconscious person. Especially if the tow is long. We have many divers not in wetsuits. This might be a good "exception" situation. Some of these big lean guys sink like rocks.
 
catherine96821:
oops.
I still think I question removing flotation on an unconscious person. Especially if the tow is long. We have many divers not in wetsuits. This might be a good "exception" situation. Some of these big lean guys sink like rocks.

True, but you will have to remove it to get them into a boat or onto a rugged shoreline
 
catherine96821:
Really, why? I thought it sounded fairly practical. Of course sealing the airway.....but I am just not convinced that rescue breathing can be done well by a layman on an ocean tow. explain your take.

First, I'll admit that I have not done a thorough review of the literature. In fact, I have only read a few abstracts from studies that were done in the early 80's that actually seemed to suggest that this idea was viable. Therefore, I'm not willing to say that this technique is completely without merit. However, I would think that if there is some recent evidence out there that supports this technique that it would have ‘trickled down’ by now… and… it hasn’t.

The current trend in ventilatory resuscitation is moving towards lower and lower inspiratory flow rates, pressures and volume. We have seen how innefective the opposite can be. The most obvious problem related to high rates, pressures, and volume is gastric insufflation and aspiration. Over pressure injuries such as pneumothorax and pneumomediastinum can also result from pressures that are too high. Venous return to the heart can be significantly impeded by excessive pressures and can lead to hypoventilation. Likewise, there is a significant decrease in total lung capacity that results from gastric and abdominal distension... another frequent cause of hypoventilation. Pre-hospital care has moved away from using high pressure mechanical ventilation for all of these reasons.

I suspect that GUE does not teach closing off the exhaust ports. This would reduce the risk of some of these problems. But it presents additional difficulties. With the exhaust ports open it is likely that there would not be enough pressure to adequately ventilate the victim. As efforts continue lung compliance decreases. Again, an open regulator probably can not provide enough pressure to overcome this increased resistance. Toss in other factors like increased thoracic resistance from a wetsuit and all bets are off.

Some of the posters here are all too familiar with how resuscitative recommendations are developed and how frequently they change. Every two years they psych themselves up for a round of ACLS or ATLS or PALS. How many techniques and different devices have come and gone over the years? EOAs, EPAs, PTLAs, TEAs, and BIPA have fallen in and out of favor. Now we have LMAs and Combitubes that have gained a class IIb recommendation. But mouth to mouth or BVM resuscitation has remained a constant.

I suppose that I just want to warn the layperson that there is a tremendous amount of effort that goes into approving a resuscitative technique. Just because you can purge a gas from a regulator doesn’t mean that it can be used as an effective ventilatory adjunct and just because a scuba agency teaches it doesn’t mean that it is approved. The considerations and parameters involved can be overwhelming to comprehend. My advice is to take a BLS course and adhere to the techniques that have been approved and that are recommended. Take a look in the back of an ambulance, sometime. I bet you won’t see a scuba cylinder and reg… nor any similar device. Ask DivingCRNA if he keeps one in the O.R.

Just for giggles, can anyone tell me how much inspiratory pressure is needed for effective ventilation? How much volume? Try it in PSI. Then tell me what pressure a purged reg gives… with exhaust ports open and exhaust ports closed. Medical professionals… zip it!
 
rmannix:
True, but you will have to remove it to get them into a boat or onto a rugged shoreline

I couldn't resist...

There is never a reason to remove floatation in the water... unless it becomes a hinrance when attempting to lift someone from the water... It is much easier as you are towing someone to the exit point to release weights, inflate their BC (keeping them afloat), purge their regs, unscrew the reg from the tank, undue the tank strap and set the tank free... (the weights and the tank are the hindrances - not the BC)the person is totally bouyant and easy to control. Once reaching the exit point it is occassionally easier (especially from a boat or pier) to grab hold of a bc and lift one out of the water then it is to lift by the arms. If you happen to be a solo rescuer, you must have the floatation in place while you board the boat or climb onto the pier. Some heavier divers are difficult to lift with just arms alone. You may need to get leverage (if you are alone) by tying a rope or other type of line to the bcd and hoisting them up. I demonstrate every possible scenario in my classes... so those who question my teaching and how many students I have... can only hope one of my students id there when they get in trouble...
 
Stephan Ash :eek:k. I will zip it. I just think its so interesting to get information from you people that really know. I have ACLS, ATLS, EFR Instructor cards. I also was a trauma nurse for many years. I am not trying to undermine "PADI". I just find it stimulating. I will shuffle on back to Hawaii forum and post pictures! (I know what you mean, though) In fact, I was Nursing Director for the ambulance company featured in the EFR tapes! My claim to fame. Like I said, sometimes I just need some thought provoking conversation and the PADI standards... are not always provacative enough. Maybe I will go work-out now!

There will (and should be) always a grass roots experience-based component in the mix of things factored into eventual revisions. Maybe SB not the place to expose the laymen to real life concerns. I don't happen to agree but will defer.
 

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