Is it time to sink the CESA?

[Peter Guy]

From a newbie -- Let's just agree that we ALL think the OW Cesa should be withdrawn from the curriculum (THIS IS AN ASSUMPTION for the purpose of discussion).

How would that then be done? That is, what are the steps necessary to propose, enact, create, etc. the change? Who does it?

 

[Thalassamania]

You just named the majority of newly minted divers as premature then. Especially if you apply that to all the skills.
And I think I might agree.

I'd agree.

From a newbie -- Let's just agree that we ALL think the OW Cesa should be withdrawn from the curriculum (THIS IS AN ASSUMPTION for the purpose of discussion).

How would that then be done? That is, what are the steps necessary to propose, enact, create, etc. the change? Who does it?

I do not agree, and even for the purpose of discussion only, the construct is nonsensical. It can only make sense when narrowly applied to adopting an an alternative way for a diver who is OOG to get to the surface. There the only real options are buddy, pony or doubles. The problem is that when a diver "bolts" due to something other than being OOG, such as a flooded mask, buddy, pony or doubles doesn't help, so the only answer there is more complete training so that those sorts of problems are non-issues. I submit that the only real reason for shelving emergency ascent training is a training time issue, so if you are going to add time to the course the problem will disappear anyway.

 

[knotical]

From a newbie -- Let's just agree that we ALL think the OW Cesa should be withdrawn from the curriculum (THIS IS AN ASSUMPTION for the purpose of discussion).

How would that then be done? That is, what are the steps necessary to propose, enact, create, etc. the change? Who does it?

Since you’re a PADI instructor, you can make the suggestion directly to PADI. But it would carry more weight if the suggestion came from multiple MIs and CDs. Those are probably the folks to talk with. I think you'll find that it has been suggested and discussed before – but it can't hurt to open a new discussion. Earlier discussions did get PADI to modify standards so we now have some flexibility about when to conduct the skill, no longer requiring us to do all students on one dive.

btw, I'm not sure if anyone other than PADI does the CESA quite as we do; – I've heard others call different skills CESA.

The PADI CESA inaccurately simulates an unusual circumstance. If it were to simulate a simple out of air situation, we'd get more air from our regs during ascent as the ambient pressure decreases, and we'd teach students to try for more breathes while ascending. (I teach that, but only verbally.) If it were to simulate the unusual circumstance of a regulator failure that allows no air to flow, what is the likelihood that the diver would start with anything other than nearly empty lungs? PADI standards are silent about when in the breathing cycle to tell the student to start the ascent, although an explanatory note does say "The student shouldn’t exhale before leaving the bottom (blow-and-go)".

One value of the CESA is that some students really "get" and internalize the bit about air expansion upon ascent. Another is increased confidence.

 

[Pearldiver07]

I submit that the only real reason for shelving emergency ascent training is a training time issue, so if you are going to add time to the course the problem will disappear anyway.

I 100% agree. There aren't that many alternatives for an OOG diver, let alone one who has also strayed from his/her buddy and eliminated buddy breathing or AAS sharing.

We would be doing the diver a grave disservice if we eliminate this in the name of expediency. If/when such a time comes that all divers are expected to dive with fully redundant air sources, as one would reasonably expect a buddy to have an AAS now, then the issue should be revisited. But not until then.

Instructor ascents are a fact of teaching OW. As an instructor, you can also do CESA's spread through the OW dives (in PADI, after dive 1), to minimize personal impact. But we can't lower the standard because some have trouble performing to it, even be it a natural physical limitation not of their own choosing. Let's not short the student because of this. Some instructors don't teach all courses. If your ears are not able to handle the number of ascents, work with smaller classes or focus on other instructional opportunities.

 

[Thalassamania]

Do I smell a new CESA Adventure Dive on the horizon (separatly priced product of course)?

 

[RonFrank]

I believe it's worth understanding how to perform a CESA. However I've never had to do one outside of OW. Honestly, don't know any diver that has done one in a real emergency.

PADI certainly makes changes to their materials and standards. If you are serious about getting the OW part of this skill removed, it will have to be done through your relationship with PADI, and by multiple shops for them to take notice and put it under review.

 

[Thalassamania]

I believe it's worth understanding how to perform a CESA. However I've never had to do one outside of OW. Honestly, don't know any diver that has done one in a real emergency.

PADI certainly makes changes to their materials and standards. If you are serious about getting the OW part of this skill removed, it will have to be done through your relationship with PADI, and by multiple shops for them to take notice and put it under review.

From: link

While the students went into town to fill their tanks, Lloyd and Gay Little were going out to Gay's study site in the Zodiac. So Ken and I, and a diver whom I'll call Frank, asked Lloyd for a lift so we could do some spearfishing (remember, no food money for that week). Frank had a full tank and Ken and I each had about half a tank.

Frank, Ken and I descended into fifty feet of water over the rocky canyons off San Jose Creek. It was Ling Cod city. I shot three. They’re a delicious, but truly stupid, fish. I just stacked them up on my spear. Ken tapped me on the shoulder and slashed his hand across his throat. He pointed to Frank, pointed to me and banged his fists together. He pointed to himself and raised his thumb. I gave him an okay. Ken started up and I went after Frank.

Frank was the only University of California diver I knew (not Berkeley might I add, but Santa Barbara) who was not a perfect buddy, but he was a faculty member and a very strong swimmer. We were at about fifty feet, he was out ahead and I was having trouble gaining on him. Over the next few minutes he managed to stay about twenty feet in front of me, just at the limit of visibility. I had almost caught him when I felt a tap on my shoulder.

There’s Ken, snorkel in place, pointing to his mouth. I gave him my regulator. Two breaths, I took two, Ken took two. Ken's hand began to gyrate, with sinking stomach and rising respiration rate I recognized the motions from the previous day.

I reviewed the situation as I worked to slow my breathing: we’re at fifty feet, Ken has an empty tank, we’re buddy-breathing. I’ve got a spear with three dead Lings on it. Frank’s once again disappearing at the limit of visibility, and there’s a shark in the area. I quickly went over my options and choked back an initial impulse to give Ken my spear with the dead fish and my tank and make a free ascent that would culminate in my treading air back to shore.

Ken and I continued to buddy breathe, two breaths for me, two for him, two for me, two for him. I give Ken the spear with the bloody fish, pointed to myself, motioned in the direction Frank had gone and banged my fists together. I pointed at Ken and raised my thumb. Ken nodded, flashed an okay and started up. I went after Frank.

Ken made a free ascent after we buddy breathed.

 

[DevonDiver]

I submit that the only real reason for shelving emergency ascent training is a training time issue, so if you are going to add time to the course the problem will disappear anyway.

Not at all. Most recreational instructors don't like teaching CESA do so because of the repeated ascents and descents.

I do lots of work with my students on emergency ascents - both AAS and CESA. I teach more than the minimum PADI requirement..and skills are repeated until I deem the student fully understands what is expected and can perform it fluidly and naturally.

This means, teaching day-in, day-out, that I do lots of ascents and descents. My ears suffer because of that.

To question the validity of teaching vertical CESA, as opposed to horizontal simulated CESA is a worthwhile discussion...especially for recreational instructors.

If the issue does not affect you - as a scientific diving instructor - then you sit back and just respect that other instructors, working in other aspects of diving, have differents demands and considerations to your own.

Do I smell a new CESA Adventure Dive on the horizon (separatly priced product of course)?

Does this really add to the quality of the discussion?

 

[Thalassamania]

Not at all. Most recreational instructors don't like teaching CESA do so because of the repeated ascents and descents.

So it's not a question of what a new diver needs to learn to dive, it's a question of the convenience and comfort of the instructor?

I do lots of work with my students on emergency ascents - both AAS and CESA. I teach more than the minimum PADI requirement..and skills are repeated until I deem the student fully understands what is expected and can perform it fluidly and naturally.

This means, teaching day-in, day-out, that I do lots of ascents and descents. My ears suffer because of that.

Sorry 'bout that ... it goes with the territory, I have the same issues.

To question the validity of teaching vertical CESA, as opposed to horizontal simulated CESA is a worthwhile discussion...especially for recreational instructors.

I think that discussion is a waste of good bandwidth ... the student should already know how to swim horizontally underwater, what they've not experienced is the lung inflation and exhalation required, without that it's a waste of time.

If the issue does not affect you - as a scientific diving instructor - then you sit back and just respect that other instructors, working in other aspects of diving, have differents demands and considerations to your own.

It is an issue to me, both a scientific diving instructor and as the author of NAUI's training standards (which have unfortunately been subsequently reduced). The point should not be the the demands and considerations of the instructors, but rather those of the students. I really don't know what the big deal is ... we did many, many ascents and descents in the pool (to 13 feet) during the first four pool sessions when we work on the free diving doff and don and the skills that lead up to it and don't seem to have problems with our ears.

Does this really add to the quality of the discussion?

It's a realistic question ... who'd have ever guessed that adequate buoyancy skills, or minimal rescue ability, would transmogrify into separately priced products? It's a well know axiom that accurate prediction of future behavior is best based on past performance.

 

[DevonDiver]

So it's not a question of what a new diver needs to learn to dive, it's a question of the convenience and comfort of the instructor?

No, it is a question that challenges the assumption that students need to practice a real CESA, vertically, in open water.

It's a realistic question ... who'd have ever guessed that adequate buoyancy skills, or minimal rescue ability, would transmogrify into separately priced products? It's a well know axiom that accurate prediction of future behavior is best based on past performance.

From my understanding, the PPB course (to which you are refering) is not about creating "adequate buoyancy skills". Those are taught/developed on entry-level. The PPB course is about developing more advanced buoyancy control.

Nobody...and I mean nobody... gets 'perfect' buoyancy on an entry-level course, regardles of agency. There is always room for improvement. That courses exists to provide a specific avenue for people to take, when they wish to learn the skills, drills and techniques that will enable them to initiate a process of self-improvement with their core buoyancy, weighting and trim.

Of course, not all PADI instuctors are capable or motivated to run a 'decent' PPB course....