Just got my new Seaskin Nova -- The Good and the Ehhhhh...

[Brett Hatch]

I love my SeaSkin suit, it's great. When I ordered it, I made a similar mistake to the OP, two in fact. One is that I forgot to tick the box for the "warm neck" option. No big deal, that option doesn't really matter that much, and I'm not sure I would have liked it anyway.

The other mistake I made is that I purchased the Kubi cuff side, but not the glove side. So, the suit showed up with just the cuff side glued in, with a silicone wrist seal. So, it was diveable with my wetgloves, but the drygloves were not included. Again, no big deal, because I was able to order the glove side directly from Kubi (plus spare o-rings and a nice bag to stow the gloves in), so I was only out like $10 or so for shipping. Today, the SeaSkin page for the Kubi cuff is very clear that you may need to purchase the glove side as well, with a prominent link. I don't think the info was as prominent in 2019 -- maybe it was and I just missed it, I can't say.

These issues weren't due to a lack of research, I knew exactly what I wanted to buy, and had done agonizing research for weeks or months. I read Stuart's whole frickin thread! But when the time came to place the order, I failed to click the right buttons in the right order. In some sense, that's on me: it's entirely within my control to click the right buttons next time, it's not like SeaSkin lied to me. But, SeaSkin's website is flawed in the sense that it makes mistakes like this easy to make. That's what the OP is complaining about, and I think he's right. SeaSkin's website is past the bar of functional -- it does work.

I studied game design at university, owned a mobile game startup company for awhile, and have a background in working on websites. What @stretchthepenn is saying about SeaSkin's website is exactly right, and is consistent with what I learned both in school and in the field. I don't personally think that he deserves a refund here (and I don't think I do either). Improving their website would cost money, time, and energy, so I can't speak to whether that investment would pencil out for them.

I have zero issues with their main product, drysuits. Their website is a product too, and it currently facilitates a frustrating experience for the customers of their main product. So, speaking as a happy SeaSkin customer, I would be even happier to see them make improvements in this area.

 

[stretchthepenn]

<snip> I studied game design at university, owned a mobile game startup company for awhile, and have a background in working on websites. What @stretchthepenn is saying about SeaSkin's website is exactly right, and is consistent with what I learned both in school and in the field. I don't personally think that he deserves a refund here (and I don't think I do either). Improving their website would cost money, time, and energy, so I can't speak to whether that investment would pencil out for them.

I have zero issues with their main product, drysuits. Their website is a product too, and it currently facilitates a frustrating experience for the customers of their main product. So, speaking as a happy SeaSkin customer, I would be even happier to see them make improvements in this area.

Thanks, Brett. I appreciate your expert input.

I think that if Seaskin improves their website, it would be a cost-effective move; even just tweaking the text on the product pop-up pages would prevent errors of the sort that you and I ran into. It's a low-effort, low-cost move that will make customers happy.

About the refund idea, I think that people might be getting a distorted idea of what I'm looking for. I don't want a free drysuit. I'm mostly seeking acknowledgement from Seaskin that their website led me astray, and I'd like some tangible effort on their part to make things right.

 

[berndo]

That's what the OP is complaining about, and I think he's right.

OPs issue wasn't even caused by the website. Not looking up what type of glove is compatible with which ring was the actual issue. Takes 3 min to google... or maybe 5 min. Was too much to ask apparently.
He's also saying that it's Sks fault that he peed his pants.

Yes, I pissed myself. Thanks, Seaskin.

... their website led me astray, and I'd like some tangible effort on their part to make things right.

The level of audacity is amazing. Their part to makes things right?
They didn't make any mistake, they shipped what you ordered and you got a super cheap custom suit. You're doing mental gymnastics so you can blame somebody for your mistakes. That's all this is.

 

[Brett Hatch]

Hello @berndo, if I had a gun with 6 barrels on it, and shot myself in the foot, that would be my fault. I bought the gun, I should understand how to operate it, and I pulled the trigger. But, I don't walk around advocating for 6-barreled guns, they're really quite dangerous enough with just the 1 barrel.

 

[berndo]

I wonder how many people are having these terrible issues. I've orderd stuff from SK without any issue. But then, I researched what I needed before I ordered.

 

[stuartv]

Yes, EXACTLY. The Seaskin website contains incomplete information, which caused me to misdiagnose the problem at the Plan stage while crossing the Bridge of Execution. This lack of information thereby led me into a Knowledge-based Mistake as defined by Don Norman in his seminal book The Design of Everyday Things.

I teach this stuff.

Thanks, Brett. I appreciate your expert input.

I think that if Seaskin improves their website, it would be a cost-effective move; even just tweaking the text on the product pop-up pages would prevent errors of the sort that you and I ran into. It's a low-effort, low-cost move that will make customers happy.

About the refund idea, I think that people might be getting a distorted idea of what I'm looking for. I don't want a free drysuit. I'm mostly seeking acknowledgement from Seaskin that their website led me astray, and I'd like some tangible effort on their part to make things right.

You can pay for a quality drysuit. You can pay for a quality website. Or, you can pay for both.

You did not pay for both. You got a good quality drysuit. Complaining about the website is just, well, gauche. Asking for a partial refund when they delivered EXACTLY what you ordered is, well, it's a worse word.

Suggesting that improving their website would be cost-effective sounds like an ivory tower opinion - not one coming from a person who has a run a successful, profitable business with an online store.

Improving their website would cost money. If they are already operating at full capacity (for a prolonged, sustained period of time), how would they possibly get any return on that money spent? How would that money spent be cost-effective?

Sometimes in business, you actually have to take steps to "fire" customers. In Seaskin's case, that might be their approach to dealing with customers that are not knowledgeable enough in their own right to order what they want without hand-holding. They may recognize that part of the success of their business model hinges on only dealing with customers that are knowledgeable enough to navigate their terrible, awful (</facetious>) website and still manage to order a drysuit. Those customers take up far less of their time in aftercare, which means those customers cost Seaskin less money, thus allowing them to keep the prices of their suits low.

I have been in or part of my own businesses for almost 25 years now. I have learned well that customers who complain after I deliver exactly what they asked for are customers that I need to (politely) "fire". I can do perfectly fine serving customers who are happy when I give them what they ask for.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Maybe it's a generational thing, but merely being able to order something as complex as a customized drysuit through a website interface impresses me. You mean I no longer have to drive 200 miles to a dealer or try to communicate via email or phone calls? You kids have it so easy these days!

 

[stuartv]

Maybe it's a generational thing, but merely being able to order something as complex as a customized drysuit through a website interface impresses me. You mean I no longer have to drive 200 miles to a dealer or try to communicate via email or phone calls? You kids have it so easy these days!

I agree. I think Seaskin's website for ordering a drysuit is awesome. The quality of it is one of the reasons I ordered my first Seaskin. The amount of detail you can specify is SO great! you can have confidence that you are ordering EXACTLY what you want.

You want a right thigh pocket with a zipper and mounted on the front of your thigh, with a left thigh pocket that is a velcro flap closure and mounted to the side of your thigh? No problem! Just awesome!

I don't know of any other drysuit vendor that even comes close.

Saying that it needs to be improved - for when you order your $1000 bespoke, made-to-measure suit - is, well, in my opinion, a sign of a complete lack of clue about how successful businesses actually stay successful.

 

[Zef]

I love my SeaSkin suit, it's great. When I ordered it, I made a similar mistake to the OP, two in fact. One is that I forgot to tick the box for the "warm neck" option. No big deal, that option doesn't really matter that much, and I'm not sure I would have liked it anyway.

The other mistake I made is that I purchased the Kubi cuff side, but not the glove side. So, the suit showed up with just the cuff side glued in, with a silicone wrist seal. So, it was diveable with my wetgloves, but the drygloves were not included. Again, no big deal, because I was able to order the glove side directly from Kubi (plus spare o-rings and a nice bag to stow the gloves in), so I was only out like $10 or so for shipping. Today, the SeaSkin page for the Kubi cuff is very clear that you may need to purchase the glove side as well, with a prominent link. I don't think the info was as prominent in 2019 -- maybe it was and I just missed it, I can't say.

These issues weren't due to a lack of research, I knew exactly what I wanted to buy, and had done agonizing research for weeks or months. I read Stuart's whole frickin thread! But when the time came to place the order, I failed to click the right buttons in the right order. In some sense, that's on me: it's entirely within my control to click the right buttons next time, it's not like SeaSkin lied to me. But, SeaSkin's website is flawed in the sense that it makes mistakes like this easy to make. That's what the OP is complaining about, and I think he's right. SeaSkin's website is past the bar of functional -- it does work.

I studied game design at university, owned a mobile game startup company for awhile, and have a background in working on websites. What @stretchthepenn is saying about SeaSkin's website is exactly right, and is consistent with what I learned both in school and in the field. I don't personally think that he deserves a refund here (and I don't think I do either). Improving their website would cost money, time, and energy, so I can't speak to whether that investment would pencil out for them.

I have zero issues with their main product, drysuits. Their website is a product too, and it currently facilitates a frustrating experience for the customers of their main product. So, speaking as a happy SeaSkin customer, I would be even happier to see them make improvements in this area.

Seaskin has an impressively laid out website, particularly for all the options they offer. The site steps you through the ordering process, breaking the options down into logical groups with a visual for each of the option and a "select" button to add the choice....the choice remains hi-lit on the screen as you browse the other options in the same category. There is also an option next to the "select" button for each option so you can read further information about each option. It begins with you selecting the fabric color and the color of the stitching, followed by these 8 additional categories:
1. Style and Cut
2. Zipper and Pee Valve Options,
3. Seal, Kneck, and Wrist Seal Options (where the warm kneck options are located among other options)
4. Valve Options
5. Boot and Sock Options
6. Additional Protection Options
7. Other Comfort and Customization Options
8. Pocket and Attachment Point Options.

There is not an overwhelming number of options in each category, with the largest number of selectable options being 19 (seal, kneck, and wrist seal options). One is stepped through all this BEFORE entering one's sizes...this maximizes the amount of time one has to think abougt what they are ordering and fiddle with their selections BEFORE being wisked to a page for final review where all the selected options are cleanly laid out beneath each of the nine category headers they fall under, it even gives one a total price for all the options in each of the nine categories. At any point, there are convenient links to navigate back to each category page where the selections can be once again reviewed and changed if desired. I can't fathom a way that the selection and ordering process could be more facilitative without it becoming cumbersome.

In the end you failed to make the correct selection inline with what you wanted to order, and you failed again to catch your error in the review before finalizing your purchase, and you failed once again to go back and look at your order after you completed it to catch any mistakes that you made so that you could have contacted SeaSkin to adjust your order, and yet you think that "SeaSkin's website is flawed in the sense that it makes mistakes like this easy to make." You F#cked up and its somehow SeaSkin's fault because they created a website that facilitates the otherwise complex process of ordering a completely customed product.

Do you blame the icecream shop for making it easy to walk up to the counter and order your flavor of choice only to read through the list of flavors posted on the wall after you received and started eating your icecream?....or apply any other cogent examples of a similar mentality.

I don't even know how to end this post other than to say "SMH" because there are no words to address this kind of Karen like mentality that you and the OP have expressed, albeit to differing degrees.

-Z

 

[stretchthepenn]

Suggesting that improving their website would be cost-effective sounds like an ivory tower opinion - not one coming from a person who has a run a successful, profitable business with an online store.

First, let's dispense with the "ivory tower opinion" bit. I'm 100% certain that had I not stated my profession, this veiled insult wouldn't even have come up, so let's just pretend it didn't.

Second, successful businesses worldwide have adopted a continuous-improvement model based on customer feedback and interactions.

Third, the required improvements are almost literally trivial, and they'd result in increased customer satisfaction.

Saying that it needs to be improved - for when you order your $1000 bespoke, made-to-measure suit - is, well, in my opinion, a sign of a complete lack of clue about how successful businesses actually stay successful.

Fourth, this argument is an example of the identity fallacy: if I'm not a ________, then I don't have any right to speak about ________ .